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Make Me Taller - General Leg Lengthening => Proportions Discussion - What Do You Think of My Proportions? => Topic started by: SysOp on November 14, 2012, 04:00:30 PM



Title: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on November 14, 2012, 04:00:30 PM
Two television hosts in the United States have the same sitting height ("from the tip of their tailbone to the top of their heads...They’re both 36 inches"). One is 6' 5" (195.5 CM) and the other is 5' 3" (160 CM). His torso is clearly wider, and his head is bigger, but ultimately what separates their height? Leg length. I hope this puts to rest once and for all the ongoing nonsense about sitting height and torso length. Your wingspan is really the only thing that limits how far you can lengthen, and I think we will start to see more people doing cosmetic arm lengthening after they have lengthened both sections of their legs. I predict we will have our first cosmetic AL diary on this site in the next year.

http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/tv/size_matters_pTOs5Bnv015ODKhYLSNhvN

(http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/09/07/tv/web_photos/07.1T107.kelly--300x450.jpg)

(http://7.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Michael-Strahan-and-Kelly-Ripa-640.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: BtzLandLiberator on November 14, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Actually, I think the torso width matters more than both torso height and arm length.  

During my months in Germany I saw some patients with enough arm length for their height increase that looked a little "odd" anyway because their torso wasn't wide enough.  On the other hand, patients with wider torso and broad shoulders would normally look fine, even with slightly shorter arm span.  By the way, that applies more to male patients than to female ones.  

The torso height is only a problem if the difference is REALLY great.  I remember only one case of that: there was a kid that did both tibias and femurs and in the end he was considerably taller than Dr.  Betz - but when sitting he was considerably shorter than Dr.  Betz.  That was VERY weird.  But it was a rare case in my opinion.  





Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: around7 on November 14, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
The problem of two LL is for sure the arm length. Very short arms look a little strange, I saw some patients with this problem. But in the end, I prefer to be taller with short arms, tham short with normal arms... :)
However, short arms are not strange enough for an AL surgery, this is my opnion...


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 14, 2012, 05:46:48 PM
so they have the same torso length, it is all tin the leg?

so, given that we could do AL on her and her wingspan to height is perfect match, could we make her 6" taller in the legs, and 2" taller tin arms and she would look correct with 10cm taller than wingspan?

Yes I would LOVE to see a cAL case, I have a choice of 10 cm or 15 cm depending on how well AL works out in patients.

sysop have you not heard of one AL case form your knowledge, like in china or something, surely some guy did 6" and then did AL.

also I cannot imagine someone doing 4" LL then doing 2" AL, the chances of your proportions being -5cm wingspan to begin with are pretty low.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: lanquesnet on November 14, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
Impressive!


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on November 14, 2012, 07:21:25 PM
sysop have you not heard of one AL case form your knowledge, like in china or something, surely some guy did 6" and then did AL.

I know many doctors who have performed arm lengthening. I do not know of any who have done cosmetic arm lengthening on both arms of a patient.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: kusop on November 14, 2012, 07:30:04 PM
screw proportion guys, lets discuss more important matters:
would you do her?
i certainly would  :o


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 14, 2012, 07:37:51 PM
screw proportion guys, lets discuss more important matters:
would you do her?
i certainly would  :o

holy shi* yes.

I know many doctors who have performed arm lengthening. I do not know of any who have done cosmetic arm lengthening on both arms of a patient.

really? but that is so odd, so i guess every LL'er just lengthens a maximum of 10cm taller than wingspan, and doesn't do any more due to arm length ?

question, is medical LL the same as cosmetic , just that is done in one leg instead of two, reducing pain etc. with this in mind maybe cAL is an easier thing to do than cLL since it is the same as mAL.



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: NBW on November 14, 2012, 09:15:32 PM
The title of the thread says it all. When I'm in the gym, sitting on the bench resting, I'd compare my sitting height with people much taller than me that are sitting next to me. My sitting height is about the same. One of my friends is a bit taller than me, but when we both sat down next to each other, I felt like I was looking down on him while talking to him. That goes to show his legs are longer and my legs are short.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: NBW on November 14, 2012, 09:18:53 PM
I think this might be useful
(http://ninamatsumoto.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/athletes09.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Fiveeight on November 14, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
So the top of the tail bone would be right about your butt crack? Seriously? if this is true, I'm just under 32 inches at 5'8. And she's 5'3 at 36 inches??? Sounds strange!


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 14, 2012, 09:22:22 PM
Wingspan matters folks. There is no point in denying it. Wingspan 15 cm below height will look odd to a certain extent. To go 10-11 cm above wingspan is really max in my opinion without considering arm lengthening

Leonard



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 14, 2012, 09:32:50 PM
not sure, when I add 14cm to myself I am 11cm taller than wingspan, but I don't look as acceptable as apotheosis who has the same stats, could be some of that wingspan is in broad shoulders.

same with craig, people have said before he looks fine but is at the maximum, for him, he is 7cm off wingspan.

I would say 5-7cm if you are of regular build, 11cm if you have big build, but it's - IMO- safer to accept that LL is a way to improve yourself and accept what it can do, and if your only 5 8 after LL then and you are at 7cm deviation with regular build, then you might just have to accept that.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: lanquesnet on November 14, 2012, 09:39:15 PM
@ nicebutwise: This pic is so telling about proportions! Where's it from ?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 14, 2012, 09:44:30 PM
yeah great pic.

just goes to show we can get 2x LL 6" and get AL and everything should be fine

look at the 5 5 guy vs the 6 0 guy, torso is just the same, assuming he does 6" LL, that puts him at 5 11, and then 2" AL will fix his short arms.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: RDenmark on November 14, 2012, 09:54:52 PM
(http://image.doc2pdf.net/temp/beckham.jjpg)

Look at the difference in proportions between them  ;)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 14, 2012, 10:28:03 PM
The range of 'normal' torso/leg ratios is broad, however the range of ratios which will most likely be referred to as aesthetically 'ideal' is not as broad.  Those who don't care about aesthetics can in most cases disregard torso/leg ratio.  If they want to look very good after ll then they will have to take it into account.  It's another factor just like arm length.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: elvergalarga on November 14, 2012, 10:39:09 PM
long legs definitely gives the height of the body, but the torso is the torso, in the picture where they are almost all body somatotypes, (the tall, leggy half-torso, the man long jump of 6 long legs torso-short, the fighter from 5. 5 inches long with a torso that is 6) but not to lose the proportion there, a person will always be that short torso with short torso, the article mentions it all, the presenter has a long torso for your height, it can be operated easily by 15 ctms legs, but the high rate of 6. 5 can not stretch my legs, and it would look ridiculous.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Stadiometer on November 15, 2012, 12:00:28 AM
Actually, I think the torso width matters more than both torso height and arm length.  

During my months in Germany I saw some patients with enough arm length for their height increase that looked a little "odd" anyway because their torso wasn't wide enough.  On the other hand, patients with wider torso and broad shoulders would normally look fine, even with slightly shorter arm span.  By the way, that applies more to male patients than to female ones.  

Excellent observation.  An athletic build with broad shoulders always looks better after leg lengthening.  In my opinion too narrow of a torso stands out much more than a wingspan to height discrepancy.   


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Transformer on November 15, 2012, 01:43:26 AM
This is not a good comparison on torsos. African-Americans are known to have really short torsos and long legs, while caucasians tend to have longer torsos in comparison. If they were of the same race with same size torsos. I do agree however, one shouldn't dwell too much on torso size and it's not as important as the wingspan.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 15, 2012, 02:35:44 AM
What is the general consensus on the maximum your height after leg lengthening can exceed your arm span while retaining some semblance of normalcy?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 15, 2012, 03:07:41 AM
10 cm

but we have AL, so arguably we can be 15cm and then do 2.5cm AL later on.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: simple888 on November 15, 2012, 03:09:12 AM
I'm wondering, when you measure wing span is it from fingertip to fingertip or does it stop where your wrists end?

Also what is more important, arm length or width of shoulders?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 15, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
10 cm

but we have AL, so arguably we can be 15cm and then do 2.5cm AL later on.

Cool. I'll be ~8cm over @ 182cm.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Saturmin on November 15, 2012, 03:51:27 AM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143313523&page=1
An interesting discussion on wing span on a different forum.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Saturmin on November 15, 2012, 04:48:40 AM
(http://thosemoes.com/stitch/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/20120828-203538.jpg)
Another interesting picture, which shows arm length matters more than torso length.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: NBW on November 15, 2012, 09:39:02 AM
More pics of different sized, height, race, everything.
(http://i.imgur.com/OuheH.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/DjgKt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/D1aXU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/go9wt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KneRg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/B5UoI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/193Ev.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PQ5Rr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/vPJxr.jpg)
All credit goes to Howard Schatz and Beverly Ornstein


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: lanquesnet on November 15, 2012, 12:49:18 PM
Thanks for those pics man! I personally find them very interesting for those wondering about proportions. :)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 02:37:57 PM
I think Wolf Wigo or Jonny moseley look ideally proportioned.  I certainly would want to be like them.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on November 15, 2012, 03:04:51 PM
screw proportion guys, lets discuss more important matters:
would you do her?
i certainly would  :o

hmmmm.....I'd fuc* her so hard she'd go to see a psychiatrist. :D


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 15, 2012, 04:28:06 PM
I think Wolf Wigo or Jonny moseley look ideally proportioned.  I certainly would want to be like them.

Quixotic don't you think that sitting height now is not a factor any more?

does this not disprove your thoughts before hand.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on November 15, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
I think Wolf Wigo or Jonny moseley look ideally proportioned.  I certainly would want to be like them.

Compare Gary Hill to Jonny Moseley. There is a 7 inch difference between them, and it appears that 90% of that difference is Gary's very long femurs.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on November 15, 2012, 05:35:42 PM
Today I saw a guy with a shorter torso than mine. He was sitting on a chair. When he stood up he was like 185 cm. So much for ideal proportions. Seriously why is it necessary to tell 5 times a day that torso length doesn't really matter??? I wonder how many guys decided to not lengthen their full potential just because their torso were not long enough.  ???


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 06:16:36 PM
Quixotic don't you think that sitting height now is not a factor any more?

does this not disprove your thoughts before hand.

Sitting height is a rough measure of torso length when no other information is available.  It IS useful.  It IS a factor because sitting height is just another measure of torso length, which does still matter if you want to look well proportioned.

When you're at a table with others, the only way you can measure their torsos in relation to you is via sitting height.  It's good in that respect :)



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 15, 2012, 06:22:46 PM
yes I realise its an accurate assessment if someone's torso length.

I meant that torso length/sitting height bares little correlation to your height.

as example two men can be sitting at a table, one 5 4, the other 6 4, and they have the same torso length/sitting height.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
Of course though, you have to bear in mind certain things:

1) These people are the pinnacle of fitness.  They have very well-developed upper bodies.  If you hope to look as good as them, it's not just a case of having similar proportions, you have to have they're build and muscularity.  

2) Torso width is underrated.  It matters, more than length imo.  Some people simply don't have the bone structure of taller heights to reach.  Why am I pointing this out? Because there are some people who have naturally smaller bodies, narrower shoulders etc - and I would rather them stay within their limits and look very good at 5'8" than go overboard and lengthen to 6' or something where they'll just look like a bean pole.  I thought most people wanted to look more attractive and by being taller they hope to achieve that.  I know a fair % of you (including me) simply want to be taller :P but my argument is, wouldn't you rather look VERY good at an average height as opposed to look only good or ok and a higher height IF attractiveness is your aim.  

I've always said longer legs are more attractive on a man.  But there are proportion sweet-spots just like there are with heights.

for 75% of people this isn't an issue at all.  For me it is, which is why I'm so interested in proportions :) If proportions aren't an issue for you, ignore my posts about them :P

I could lengthen to a 6'1+ like apotheosis.  But I only want to get to 5'11".  Why? Because that extra increase in height is not worth it if I'm not well proportioned.  Just my view. Some people couldn't give a s***, and fair play to them :P


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 06:42:33 PM
yes I realise its an accurate assessment if someone's torso length.

I meant that torso length/sitting height bares little correlation to your height.

as example two men can be sitting at a table, one 5 4, the other 6 4, and they have the same torso length/sitting height.

Yes, that maybe true and NORMAL, doesn't mean that either of them necessarily look perfect.  In this case, the 5'4" guy will most likely have short legs and the 6'4" guy long legs.  Two extremes, neither of which look inherently great, although subjectively, some people will like them. 

Regardless of this, yes torso height can be ignored for the most part for ll, but not for attractiveness. I've never said it matters in most cases if you want to look normal, but I have mentioned and I do maintain the belief that it IS a factor of attractiveness. 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 15, 2012, 06:50:02 PM
hmmm ok.

well i was referring to the 5 3 girl and the 6 5 guy, there is 14" between them , 2" might be the head size but the other 12" is all leg.

yes I realise he had wide torso, but the other athletic people there, some of them have regular torso width, maybe they are well cut with 6-pack, but the natural torso width and bone structure is much the same.

it annoying that -ultimately -wingspan gets in the way.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 07:23:22 PM
hmmm ok.

well i was referring to the 5 3 girl and the 6 5 guy, there is 14" between them , 2" might be the head size but the other 12" is all leg.

yes I realise he had wide torso, but the other athletic people there, some of them have regular torso width, maybe they are well cut with 6-pack, but the natural torso width and bone structure is much the same.

it annoying that -ultimately -wingspan gets in the way.

I have a problem with wingspan too. People with broader shoulders have larger wingspans.  My wingspan is +6'1", but that's mostly because of my broad shoulders! I have the arms of someone who is 5'11" in reality. 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 15, 2012, 07:31:27 PM
I don't think I have broad shoulders, but yeah its not really wingspan, its more arm length, but I'm not sure how we shoudl measure arm length and compare it to height.

would be nice to find out apotheosis arm length.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 15, 2012, 07:59:35 PM
Proportions shouldn't be ignored cause if you lengthen too much and don't have the upper body (wingspan, shoulder width etc) for it it will look odd.

But it is true that you put a lot of emphasis on it Quintoxic...


You seem to be a perfectionist. I don't criticize . To each their own. But human beings are never perfect. Not physically nor in any other way. I used to be a hardcore perfectionist... for the longest time. But I realized that perfectionism in most cases is not a healthy thing (many psychologists even consider it a disease) and often leads to more suffering than good.


But thats just my opinion.


Leonard


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 08:03:11 PM
Proportions shouldn't be ignored cause if you lengthen too much and don't have the upper body (wingspan, shoulder width etc) for it it will look odd.

But it is true that you put a lot of emphasis on it Quintoxic...


You seem to be a perfectionist. I don't criticize . To each their own. But human beings are never perfect. Not physically nor in any other way. I used to be a hardcore perfectionist... for the longest time. But I realized that perfectionism in most cases is not a healthy thing (many psychologists even consider it a disease) and often leads to more suffering than good.




But thats just my opinion.


Leonard

I'm not a perfectionist, because we can never realistically achieve perfection.  However, what's wrong with aiming to be as close to it as possible?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: simple888 on November 15, 2012, 09:28:48 PM
i heard torso length does matter, it is attractive to females.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 09:33:58 PM
i heard torso length does matter, it is attractive to females.

It is important for attractiveness.  I doubt anyone here would argue with that.

However the range of 'normal' proportions i.e the range at which you don't look abnormal is fairly large.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Stadiometer on November 15, 2012, 11:14:07 PM
Quixotic-

I appreciate that you are concerned about proportions and attractiveness. While I am a little bit taller than you we have similar goals for our proportions. If you have the opportunity to meet with LL patients I'm confident you will notice that patients who lengthen equally on both segments (Example: 5cm Femur and Tibia) inevitably look better proportioned and more attractive than those who lengthen 6.5-8.0cm on only one bone segment. This is irrespective of wingspan. 

Keep in mind that a mans sitting height will not influence his attractiveness to a woman. Only his standing height will have this effect.

It's my opinion that men with a swimmers build and not a bodybuilders physique achieve the best LL results. They don't end up with that bean pole look of someone who has a naturally slender build or the short armed muscle bound T-Rex look.

I truly enjoy the work you do on people's mock ups. 

The following thread from several years ago does a good job of visualizing the importance of torso thickness vs. equal wingspan to height:   http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1956.0.html


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 15, 2012, 11:51:29 PM


Keep in mind that a mans sitting height will not influence his attractiveness to a woman. Only his standing height will have this effect.



Sitting height itself has nothing to do with attractiveness, no.  Women aren't attracted to the tallest guy sitting down at a table.

HOWEVER if you're saying that torso length does not influence attractiveness, then that's wrong.  A long, lean torso is almost universally attractive! Short legs long torso gives the illusion of a larger upper body which obviously is subconsciously going to be more attractive to women.  That doesn't mean short and average torsos on a guy instantly makes him unattractive though.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Stadiometer on November 16, 2012, 12:47:04 AM
Short legs long torso gives the illusion of a larger upper body which obviously is subconsciously going to be more attractive to women.

The exact opposite is true. Most women prefer longer legs with an average torso and athletic broad shoulders. Girls on this forum have stated this many times over. 

Recently a girl posted on this forum that the short legs long torso body type makes guys look like they will topple over at any moment and find this quite unattractive...

As I said it's good your focusing on proportions and attractiveness but torso length and/or sitting height is the incorrect focal point. That was one of the purposes of this thread by Sysop and is absolutely correct.

The width of the torso combined with arm length/wingspan is more important and has a far greater impact on your concerns.   





Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: jmnj06 on November 16, 2012, 01:38:48 AM
Stadiometer I agree with you, we are in this forum for height. I am here to get the maximum height, not GOOD ENOUGH because I want to look proportionate. I am more worried about losing functionality, even then I am willing to be at 90% if I can gain the maximum height.



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Stadiometer on November 16, 2012, 02:35:31 AM
Stadiometer I agree with you, we are in this forum for height. I am here to get the maximum height, not GOOD ENOUGH because I want to look proportionate. I am more worried about losing functionality, even then I am willing to be at 90% if I can gain the maximum height.

I appreciate what you are saying jmnj06.

I still want to emphasize that I think considering an individuals proportions is important. Just not the length of the torso or sitting height. I find these are of little consequence.

What I am saying and I believe Betzland would agree, but I don't want to speak for him, is that for a man who undergoes LL the thickness of his torso and/or how broad his shoulders are plays a more significant role in the post LL appearance. Even if your wingspan/arm length equals your height after LL you can still look "off" if you have a slender build. Whereas, if your wingspan/arm length is less than your height but you have an athletic build you will appear in proportion.

 

 

   


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: RDenmark on November 16, 2012, 01:24:19 PM
(http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/leg.body.ratio.jpg)

This.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: jmnj06 on November 16, 2012, 03:44:46 PM
This guy went from 5'6" to 5'10" on just his femurs. He did 10cm on one segment.

How is this guy not attractive? I don't think the public would even notice his femurs, we do because of this forum.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2ilojg5.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Transformer on November 16, 2012, 04:02:24 PM
Supposedly this guy has a diary on this forum but I was unable to find it.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on November 16, 2012, 04:38:19 PM
Supposedly this guy has a diary on this forum but I was unable to find it.

It's here. It's just under his forum name. Read the details of the UK Guardian article about him and it will narrow it down to five possible diaries out of 175. :)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Transformer on November 16, 2012, 05:02:47 PM
Thanks for narrowing it down but thats still five too many  :P


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Transformer on November 16, 2012, 05:38:10 PM
Found it.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 16, 2012, 06:37:23 PM
I read that artical, it was hard to understand, i thought that guy went form 5 7 - 5 9.5, and it mentioned another guy that went form 5 6 - 5 10, and I assume he did 2 height surgeries for that gain.

it was confusing who it was referring to.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: devon on November 17, 2012, 05:01:09 AM
(http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/leg.body.ratio.jpg)

This.

These pics are great for rating attractiveness of various torso to leg proportions.  However, one giant flaw in these drawings is that, generally speaking, people with short legs tend to have short arms, and people with long legs tend to have long arms.  In these drawings, the complete opposite is true. 

In my opinion, the reason that men or women with short torsos and long legs still look "normal" or "good" is because their look is still balanced by their longer arms.  My goal is to lengthen as much as possible without making my arms look too short. I wish there was a simple mathematical formula to determine this, but doubtful.  Everyone's body is so darn different, too many factors, of which I can't seem to comprehend.  But the conversations on this forum are getting more insightful, even if I hold the minority opinion on certain points ;)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: back2basics on November 17, 2012, 10:40:34 PM
I guess that depends.  For patients who do end up lengthening both parts of their legs for a good amount, their whole body will already be out of proportion no matter what. . .  although it will look really unnatural if patients put their arms down, their torso will probably be much shorter anyways.  this surgery isn't a natural process in the first place.  I guess if you do get arm lengthening surgery as well, things will look much better.  but i must say you be crazy hahaha! if anyone successfully does all these surgeries, let me know. . .  you are a damn hero


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: elvergalarga on November 17, 2012, 10:52:33 PM
Quote from: Quixotic link=topic=5506. msg68558#msg68558 date=1353009791
I'm not a perfectionist, because we can never realistically achieve perfection.   However, what's wrong with aiming to be as close to it as possible?

Quixotic, I completely agree with you, we can not be perfectionists, but we can try to draw us as much as possible to perfection, a body must always be provided and pleasing to everyone, not just yourself, when you ll in warm , femora or both only make ourselves higher in view of the common people, but viewed under the microscope, we should not lose in any aspect ratio, people with short torso should aspire to no more than 5 to avoid being rare ctms , those having a long or very long torso can be operated both segments to which money and allow bone.
I personally only aspire to 6 CTMS in the warm, my torso is not very long, say it is normal, and indeed my height with LL quedaria for many in what is called a height of "little" man, but to my those 6 ctms mean glory.

A quixotic question, to this day, there is something we can do to achieve our torso stretch 1-2 CTMS?



A study by the University of Albany in the United States found that women subconsciously prefer men with long torsos and thin wrists as they inspire more confidence.
During the investigation it was revealed that women were more attracted to this type of man because they thought they were better candidates for long-term relationships.  But men with the opposite characteristics they felt they were more prone to gambling and sex without love.

To conduct this study, researchers merged pictures of the faces of 67 men and 82 women were asked to indicate heterosexual masculinity and how the merging attracted eight selected faces measuring 16 parts of the body (torso, hands, arms and other).  The result was clear.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: elvergalarga on November 18, 2012, 06:17:30 PM
I'm trying to upload images of the Actor David Hasselhof, the CTMS is like 1.95 or something, but according to the pictures I see he has very long legs and thin which makes it look a smaller torso for height has yet its appeal as an actor not change while he was young, while someone tells me how to upload photos or images can look for pictures or videos of David Hasselhof online to check the body type is that actor


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 18, 2012, 07:11:10 PM
Quixotic, I completely agree with you, we can not be perfectionists, but we can try to draw us as much as possible to perfection, a body must always be provided and pleasing to everyone, not just yourself, when you ll in warm , femora or both only make ourselves higher in view of the common people, but viewed under the microscope, we should not lose in any aspect ratio, people with short torso should aspire to no more than 5 to avoid being rare ctms , those having a long or very long torso can be operated both segments to which money and allow bone.
I personally only aspire to 6 CTMS in the warm, my torso is not very long, say it is normal, and indeed my height with LL quedaria for many in what is called a height of "little" man, but to my those 6 ctms mean glory.

A quixotic question, to this day, there is something we can do to achieve our torso stretch 1-2 CTMS?



A study by the University of Albany in the United States found that women subconsciously prefer men with long torsos and thin wrists as they inspire more confidence.
During the investigation it was revealed that women were more attracted to this type of man because they thought they were better candidates for long-term relationships.  But men with the opposite characteristics they felt they were more prone to gambling and sex without love.

To conduct this study, researchers merged pictures of the faces of 67 men and 82 women were asked to indicate heterosexual masculinity and how the merging attracted eight selected faces measuring 16 parts of the body (torso, hands, arms and other).  The result was clear.

Multiple studies have revealed the link between subconscious feminine lust and masculinity. The more masculine you are, the more sexually attracted a woman will be to you, especially during ovulation.

Women prefer more feminine and stable men throughout the rest of the month.

The correlation I draw from this regarding men is long legs = masculinity, long torso = femininity.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Fiveeight on November 18, 2012, 10:19:26 PM
I paid close attention to the NFL show with Michael Strahan today (1.96m) , As he sat next to Howie Long (1.95m) and Jimmy Johnson (1.82m). Even though Strahan is taller than both of them, he was still a tad bit shorter than Johnson, and Long as they sat down. Obviously he has a short torso and very long legs. No one has ever said Strahan is out of proportion. We pay so much attention b/c we're doing LL, but its really a wide range of proportions to be in before you're seen as disproportionate or weird looking. I live in Miami and have many friends who are Haitian. Most Africans whose bloodlines are unmixed have much longer legs. Haitians have the purest African blood outside of Africa. Most of my Haitian friends have long legs, but none look disproportionate. and I only pay attention b/c I'm planning on getting LL.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on November 18, 2012, 10:29:18 PM
I'm trying to upload images of the Actor David Hasselhof, the CTMS is like 1.95 or something, but according to the pictures I see he has very long legs and thin which makes it look a smaller torso for height has yet its appeal as an actor not change while he was young, while someone tells me how to upload photos or images can look for pictures or videos of David Hasselhof online to check the body type is that actor


David Hasselhof does not have a short torso.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: ProSioux on November 18, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
man this is a great post. . . big relief the torso doesnt really matter that much. . . and i agree we give all that importance to the torso because we plan on LL. . .


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 19, 2012, 12:10:41 AM
Hasselhoff is almost in "giant" territory and his torso isn't short. But I agree that his legs are long.

That fella looked good in the 80's...I always wanted long legs like him. I ended up with short legs- but LL next year will fix that once and for all  8)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 19, 2012, 12:27:47 AM
So whats more important for a potential LLer in order  to look "good" or "more in proportion" if your wingspan will be  shorter by 5 cm than your  final height after LL.


2 Options:


1) To have broad athletic shoulders with shorter arms (not really short arms but not long either)

or

2) to have longer arms and narrow slender shoulders (non-athletic)


I would really appreciate  to hear your opinions on this matter guys


Thanks


Leonard


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on November 19, 2012, 12:31:33 AM
Well I would assume the 2nd, which also defeats the idea that apotheosis looks so good 11cm taller yet I don't.

but I wouldn't confuse broad shoulder with a big build, they could be separate things.

so someone could have broad shoulders, short arms but a bid build or small build.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 19, 2012, 01:16:56 AM
Not sure I agree AsTallAsThe AverageWoman.


Cause narrow slender shoulders makes a man look "petite" if you know what I mean...


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 19, 2012, 01:50:45 AM
My vote is for broad shoulders. Then again, I'm biased  ;)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 19, 2012, 02:16:15 AM
So am I...  :-*


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Red321 on November 19, 2012, 06:24:03 AM
My vote is for broad shoulders. Then again, I'm biased  ;)


My vote is that if your TALL, broad shouldered and generally a BIG guy, no one who thinks your proportions are a little off would dare open their mouth  ;D


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 19, 2012, 06:54:09 AM
Amen brother.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 19, 2012, 07:25:51 AM
I am a big guy!  :D  Well only my upper body is  :P

I have broad athletic shoulders (broader than many well built 5'10" guys)  so I hope I will look good going from 170 to 177.5 in my femurs.






Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Stadiometer on November 19, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
In my previous posts I have pushed hard to emphasize the importance of a broad shouldered athletic build and deemphasize torso length and wingspan/arm length. The following is directly from Craig49's diary and is an excellent example of how the general public will view you post LL. Keep in mind Craig49 states above some of his photos that his height can be 188(cm) with footwear and his wingspan is 177.5(cm). 

I asked them all, "don't my arms look short?" 
"no, you are really wide"
"no, your arms are long and you are so tall" 
"You look really big, I can tell you have been working out."

Thanks Craig49. Excellent diary and all the best in your recovery.

 

 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: BtzLandLiberator on November 20, 2012, 12:52:12 AM
It has been 5 months since I left Germany.  I can tell you that my broad shoulders helped me to hide the LL a lot.  Or I think they did, because surprisingly for me, until now NO ONE commented or noticed the extra 10cm. . . lol The most common comment I receive, by far, is that I'm "thinner" or "slimmer" now. 

One female friend of mine commented that I look stronger - this was the most puzzling comment of all, because I lost a lot of my upper body muscle during my stay in Germany.  I guess girls equate height with strength, even unconsciously. 

It was even more puzzling because this girl was slight shorter than me (she is 1,64cm, I was 1,65cm) and used to be taller than me with heels.  But she met me for dinner with heels, I was taller than her and she didn't say a thing.  If she noticed, she didn't show. 



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: leonard on November 20, 2012, 01:15:27 AM
Thanks Stadiometer! Great quote from Craig49.


I really think it's true: Broad athletic build can hide what we are doing... People see a difference but they can't put their finger on it. I love it.

BtzLandLiberator:

 I think this isa universal truth: " I guess girls equate height with strength, even unconsciously"


it is unconscious. Some decent girls will say: Your height doesn't matter. And she believes it. But unconsciously we shorter guys are seen as weaker. No matter how well built our upper bodies are.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on November 20, 2012, 05:42:18 AM
Thanks Stadiometer! Great quote from Craig49.


I really think it's true: Broad athletic build can hide what we are doing... People see a difference but they can't put their finger on it. I love it.

BtzLandLiberator:

 I think this isa universal truth: " I guess girls equate height with strength, even unconsciously"


it is unconscious. Some decent girls will say: Your height doesn't matter. And she believes it. But unconsciously we shorter guys are seen as weaker. No matter how well built our upper bodies are.

You got that to a T brother. So much of human perception is based on subconscious survival instincts. There is no greater metric for a man's strength and ability to provide and defend than his height.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 15, 2012, 02:50:39 AM
I would like to say thank you for this post.  I think really excellent points have been made.  I think I am a perfect candidate to lengthen to 6'2" like apotheosis.  7. 5cm on tibias and 5. 5cm on femurs would be perfect.  That is what I plan to do actually and everything I do is with that goal in mind.  My stats are:
Height: 175cm
Sitting height: 93cm
Wingspan: 191cm

I think hightening to 189cm would give me even better proportions than what I have naturally.  At that height I'd still be 2 cm less than my wingspan.  Right now I have overly long arms and short legs.  My older brother is 6'3".  I feel the rest of my body is that of a tall person just my legs came out short by random chance.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Repelsteeltje on December 17, 2012, 09:17:31 PM
16cm taller wingspan than height? A little advice, go see the doctor or remeasure yourself...
Such a difference isn't naturally.

Also 93cm sitting height is pretty average for 175cm. You are having slightly shorter legs than average.
At 93cm sitting height your cosmetic maximum height should be 186cm.

I don't want to discourage you if your goal is to reach 189cm. But, my advice is to go for 186cm. The only real difference between 186cm and 189cm is that you would look better at 186cm. At 186cm you are already tall.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on December 17, 2012, 10:29:51 PM
16cm taller wingspan than height? A little advice, go see the doctor or remeasure yourself...
Such a difference isn't naturally.

Also 93cm sitting height is pretty average for 175cm. You are having slightly shorter legs than average.
At 93cm sitting height your cosmetic maximum height should be 186cm.

I don't want to discourage you if your goal is to reach 189cm. But, my advice is to go for 186cm. The only real difference between 186cm and 189cm is that you would look better at 186cm. At 186cm you are already tall.

I think he measured his sitting height wrong.  My sitting height is 93 and my legs aren't short, they're averagely proportioned.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 12:41:57 AM
Quote from: Quixotic link=topic=5506. msg71055#msg71055 date=1355783391
I think he measured his sitting height wrong.   My sitting height is 93 and my legs aren't short, they're averagely proportioned.
How do you figure I measured my sitting height wrong? Do you think it should be more or less than 93cm?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 12:55:36 AM
Quote from: Quixotic link=topic=5506. msg71055#msg71055 date=1355783391
I think he measured his sitting height wrong.   My sitting height is 93 and my legs aren't short, they're averagely proportioned.
I think what he meant is that because my arms are so long my legs are short for my arms.

Repelsteeltje: What is the proper way to measure wingspan? I measured from fingertip to fingertip with arms outstretched.  I'm not going to a doc just to get my wingspan measured.  I figure I could be off by a cm but even still I have a very tall wingspan.  Apotheosis said his sitting height was 93 or so.  He lengthened to 190cm I think and no one here thinks he looks unproportioned.  Then again look at Michael Strahan who has a sitting height of 36" (91. 44cm) at 6'5"(195. 5cm).  Isn't the point of this thread that torso length doesn't matter within a certain range? What percentage do you think is good proportions? What percentage would I be at 186cm as opposed to 189cm?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 01:04:23 AM
Quote from: Repelsteeltje link=topic=5506. msg71053#msg71053 date=1355779051
16cm taller wingspan than height? A little advice, go see the doctor or remeasure yourself. . .
Such a difference isn't naturally.

Also 93cm sitting height is pretty average for 175cm.  You are having slightly shorter legs than average.
At 93cm sitting height your cosmetic maximum height should be 186cm. 

I don't want to discourage you if your goal is to reach 189cm.  But, my advice is to go for 186cm.  The only real difference between 186cm and 189cm is that you would look better at 186cm.  At 186cm you are already tall. 
Ok I remeasured and this time I didn't stretch so much.  I got 190cm.  Still over what I want to lengthen to.  What do you think guys? 186 or 189? Should I post pics for mockup?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on December 18, 2012, 01:08:38 AM
Ok I remeasured and this time I didn't stretch so much.  I got 190cm.  Still over what I want to lengthen to.  What do you think guys? 186 or 189? Should I post pics for mockup?

You should definitely choose 189 cm if your wingspan allows it.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 01:13:01 AM
Quote from: 511 link=topic=5506. msg71064#msg71064 date=1355792918
You should definitely choose 189 cm if your wingspan allows it.
Thanks! I agree.  I've always known I had long arms.  I can grab the rim on a 10ft basketball hoop at 5'9" jumping from a standstill.  I know I can't jump that high my long arms are what gives me that extra reach.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: chuck norris on December 18, 2012, 04:04:56 AM
I think what he meant is that because my arms are so long my legs are short for my arms.

Repelsteeltje: What is the proper way to measure wingspan? I measured from fingertip to fingertip with arms outstretched.  I'm not going to a doc just to get my wingspan measured.  I figure I could be off by a cm but even still I have a very tall wingspan.  Apotheosis said his sitting height was 93 or so.  He lengthened to 190cm I think and no one here thinks he looks unproportioned.  Then again look at Michael Strahan who has a sitting height of 36" (91. 44cm) at 6'5"(195. 5cm).  Isn't the point of this thread that torso length doesn't matter within a certain range? What percentage do you think is good proportions? What percentage would I be at 186cm as opposed to 189cm?

to measure your wingspan you need to stand with your back next to a wall, arms outstretched, and measure the distance from fingertip to fingertip on the wall.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: chuck norris on December 18, 2012, 04:21:56 AM
Then again look at Michael Strahan who has a sitting height of 36" (91. 44cm) at 6'5"(195. 5cm). 

I was curious about this so I googled it, and found this article http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/tv/size_matters_pTOs5Bnv015ODKhYLSNhvN.
I believe here is where you've read it. Mind you, the distance from the tip of the tailbone to the top of the head is not sitting height. There are another 5 cm or more from the tip of the tailbone to where your butt ends (where it touches the chair you're sitting on).


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 08:41:20 AM
Quote from: chuck norris link=topic=5506. msg71074#msg71074 date=1355803496
to measure your wingspan you need to stand with your back next to a wall, arms outstretched, and measure the distance from fingertip to fingertip on the wall.
This is what I did I got 190cm.  I think everyone measures sitting height from the the the level of where they're sitting on to the top of their head.  Thats the only way to do it.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on December 18, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
This is what I did I got 190cm.  I think everyone measures sitting height from the the the level of where they're sitting on to the top of their head.  Thats the only way to do it.

You were sitting erect though when you measured sitting height though weren't you?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Repelsteeltje on December 18, 2012, 01:50:11 PM
Repelsteeltje: What is the proper way to measure wingspan? I measured from fingertip to fingertip with arms outstretched.  I'm not going to a doc just to get my wingspan measured.  I figure I could be off by a cm but even still I have a very tall wingspan.  Apotheosis said his sitting height was 93 or so.  He lengthened to 190cm I think and no one here thinks he looks unproportioned.  Then again look at Michael Strahan who has a sitting height of 36" (91. 44cm) at 6'5"(195. 5cm).  Isn't the point of this thread that torso length doesn't matter within a certain range? What percentage do you think is good proportions? What percentage would I be at 186cm as opposed to 189cm?

At 186cm with a sitting height of 93cm your ratio would be 50%. Many LL surgeons say that you shouldn't go under that in cosmetic cases. Of course their are exceptions who are having an ratio under 50% even naturally. But, that doesn't mean it looks good. Some will look good in clothes because of tall wingspan. But if they would take of their clothes you will see that it looks disproportioned. The point of this thread is indeed that torso length doesn't matter and you shouldn't worry too much about it if you want to reach your goal. But this counts more for people who are 165cm and want to be 180cm. For you ( 175cm ) you are already about average. At 186cm you would be tall and with your starting proportions you probably would look great at this height. Why bother those 3cm which could make you look a little bit of? This way you could reach your goal with 5,5cm on each segment instead of 7cm each, which is much safer.

It's your decision of course. Just want to give you some advice :).


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 07:50:41 PM
Quote from: Quixotic link=topic=5506. msg71085#msg71085 date=1355829115
You were sitting erect though when you measured sitting height though weren't you?
By sitting erect you mean sitting up straight? Am I supposed to be slouching.  I turned a chair sideways and was sitting with my back against a wall.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on December 18, 2012, 07:53:23 PM
By sitting erect you mean sitting up straight? Am I supposed to be slouching.  I turned a chair sideways and was sitting with my back against a wall.

Sitting up straight yes.  Measure again.  93cm is not that much at 175. 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 07:58:10 PM
Quote from: Repelsteeltje link=topic=5506. msg71088#msg71088 date=1355838611
At 186cm with a sitting height of 93cm your ratio would be 50%.  Many LL surgeons say that you shouldn't go under that in cosmetic cases.  Of course their are exceptions who are having an ratio under 50% even naturally.  But, that doesn't mean it looks good.  Some will look good in clothes because of tall wingspan.  But if they would take of their clothes you will see that it looks disproportioned.  The point of this thread is indeed that torso length doesn't matter and you shouldn't worry too much about it if you want to reach your goal.  But this counts more for people who are 165cm and want to be 180cm.  For you ( 175cm ) you are already about average.  At 186cm you would be tall and with your starting proportions you probably would look great at this height.  Why bother those 3cm which could make you look a little bit of? This way you could reach your goal with 5,5cm on each segment instead of 7cm each, which is much safer. 

It's your decision of course.  Just want to give you some advice :).
Yes valid points.  Keep in mind 3cm is only 1. 18 inches and going over by that little I don't think would be noticeable.  I have the same sitting hight as apotheosis but with longer arms.  Some people naturally have shorter torsos, ie Michael Strahan, the one mentioned at the beginning this thread.  He is African American though.  I'm still debating what to do.  My tibias are short so I think I will just do 8cm on tibias to start with.  If I still want extra height I will come back and do 5cm on femurs which heal faster.  That would put total lengthening at 13cm and i would be 188cm (6'2").


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: Quixotic link=topic=5506. msg71109#msg71109 date=1355860403
Sitting up straight yes.   Measure again.   93cm is not that much at 175.  
measured two more times this time really stretching my back and got 94cm and 93. 75cm.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 08:16:29 PM
Lets just say for the sake of this argument that my sitting height is 94cm in the morning and 93cm at night  ;)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on December 18, 2012, 08:27:19 PM
measured two more times this time really stretching my back and got 94cm and 93. 75cm.

That's strange.  I have a similar sitting height to you, but my legs aren't short at all.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cdog94544 on December 18, 2012, 08:52:05 PM
That's strange.  I have a similar sitting height to you, but my legs aren't short at all.
Yeah I'm not strangely disproportionate. I just have really long arms. With that torso length you could lengthen to 183cm (7cm) nicely depending on your arms. What is your wingspan?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on December 18, 2012, 09:01:53 PM
Yeah I'm not strangely disproportionate. I just have really long arms. With that torso length you could lengthen to 183cm (7cm) nicely depending on your arms. What is your wingspan?

182 I think.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: dice1985 on January 02, 2013, 04:28:47 PM
setting height !!! interesting i have notice in every where i go ppl who are over weight or fat have setting height higher than skinny ppl who are a bit  taller than them . and if 2 are the same height who ever got more weight got more setting height ...


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on January 02, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
setting height !!! interesting i have notice in every where i go ppl who are over weight or fat have setting height higher than skinny ppl who are a bit  taller than them . and if 2 are the same height who ever got more weight got more setting height ...

Yes, it is true. If you have a big fat butt you will have a higher sitting height than you will when you are skinny. If you are concerned about your sitting height, you can just get really fat and you will sit an inch or two higher.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on January 02, 2013, 07:48:38 PM
Yes, it is true. If you have a big fat butt you will have a higher sitting height than you will when you are skinny. If you are concerned about your sitting height, you can just get really fat and you will sit an inch or two higher.

This is true to some degree, but two inches? Nope. I've gone from 60kg to 73kg and my sitting height has changed at the most half a cm.  And even then I think that change is due to a cm of height gain in the past year. And I'm not saying anyone should be concerned about their sitting height in the sense that it's an aesthetic criterion - sitting height is a rough measure of torso length. It's good for judging the relative lengths of people's torsos whilst sitting down.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Captain America on January 02, 2013, 08:02:17 PM
Yes, it is true. If you have a big fat butt you will have a higher sitting height than you will when you are skinny. If you are concerned about your sitting height, you can just get really fat and you will sit an inch or two higher.

Ha, nice.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: dice1985 on January 03, 2013, 05:39:54 AM
Yes, it is true. If you have a big fat butt you will have a higher sitting height than you will when you are skinny. If you are concerned about your sitting height, you can just get really fat and you will sit an inch or two higher.

lol today i took the bus to the city a guy came on the bus with his gf he is at least 6'1 he was really skinny with long legs he just tall his gf is like 5'5 max with big ass when they sat the exact same setting height after that i have to agree 100% setting height have to do more with the weight and the ass end of the story .. i will never talk about setting height again or think about it .


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on January 03, 2013, 05:52:53 AM
I too see dudes with very long legs. Well, not every day, but they're out there waiting to free you from obsession with proportions.  :D


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Repelsteeltje on January 04, 2013, 09:11:33 PM
lol today i took the bus to the city a guy came on the bus with his gf he is at least 6'1 he was really skinny with long legs he just tall his gf is like 5'5 max with big ass when they sat the exact same setting height after that i have to agree 100% setting height have to do more with the weight and the ass end of the story .. i will never talk about setting height again or think about it .

Well sitting height has definitely something to do with height... but the range is far much greater than most people think. Some examples:

When I go to school I take the bus and 70% of the time there is a guy with really long legs ( you can't really see it because he covers it really well ). The first time I walked next to him I felt really small ( he was about 6'2 or 6'3 ). The next time I saw him he was sitting and I had to sit next to him. And suddenly I got confused because he was at the same eye level as me ( maybe 1 or 2 cm above ). So I thought he must be sitting relaxed or something ( you know what I mean ). A few days later he was there again and I observed him a little bit and he was just sitting like me. Conclusion: This guy was about 20cm taller than me, still we had about the same sitting height.

Another person I see often in the bus is a little girl/(woman?) she is about 18-20 years. And I would say about 4'9 or 4'10 tall. So she is about 6-7 inches shorter than I am. But her sitting height was almost as tall as mine ( and I don't have an very small torso or something )

I know it is rare but there are definitely people who could have about the same sitting height like yours but are about 15-20cm taller.

Oh and I forgot to say that one of my best friends is 11cm taller than I am but we have the exact same torso length. He doesn't appear to have extremely long legs.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Quixotic on January 04, 2013, 10:24:55 PM
I'm not obsessed with proportions.  I know there are people who are 6'1"+ with length torso - does that mean I'm automatically going to lengthen to that? No.  I want to find out at which height my proportions will look best and see if extra height beyond that is worth the proportion sacrifice :) That's just me though


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: dice1985 on January 05, 2013, 03:18:11 AM
Well sitting height has definitely something to do with height... but the range is far much greater than most people think. Some examples:

When I go to school I take the bus and 70% of the time there is a guy with really long legs ( you can't really see it because he covers it really well ). The first time I walked next to him I felt really small ( he was about 6'2 or 6'3 ). The next time I saw him he was sitting and I had to sit next to him. And suddenly I got confused because he was at the same eye level as me ( maybe 1 or 2 cm above ). So I thought he must be sitting relaxed or something ( you know what I mean ). A few days later he was there again and I observed him a little bit and he was just sitting like me. Conclusion: This guy was about 20cm taller than me, still we had about the same sitting height.

Another person I see often in the bus is a little girl/(woman?) she is about 18-20 years. And I would say about 4'9 or 4'10 tall. So she is about 6-7 inches shorter than I am. But her sitting height was almost as tall as mine ( and I don't have an very small torso or something )

I know it is rare but there are definitely people who could have about the same sitting height like yours but are about 15-20cm taller.

Oh and I forgot to say that one of my best friends is 11cm taller than I am but we have the exact same torso length. He doesn't appear to have extremely long legs.

it has more to do with the ass more than anything else , i notice that i have friend 5'11 skinnier than me with flat ass and his setting height is lower than me it's really simple if u want to increase ur setting height do ass job and get bubble butt , 90% of tall ppl tall cuz they have long legs i played soccer all my life and i have notice that and ppl have dif proportions i remember guy back home he is shorter than me and got a hands of a 6' man with normal wingspan wingspan does matter more than anything ..


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: RDenmark on January 05, 2013, 09:32:29 AM
I sat next to a pretty tall guy in the bus. He had an INSANE long torso. He must have had a 105-110cm sitting height.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: AsTallAsWomen on January 05, 2013, 10:02:49 AM
I'm not obsessed with proportions.  I know there are people who are 6'1"+ with length torso - does that mean I'm automatically going to lengthen to that? No.  I want to find out at which height my proportions will look best and see if extra height beyond that is worth the proportion sacrifice :) That's just me though

yes but that is just you though.

the entire world is full of people with the same torso lengths and much longer/shorter legs as prooved by people on this forum, so you think those people look strange and out of proportion.

what matters is wingspan.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on January 05, 2013, 11:17:51 AM
I sat next to a pretty tall guy in the bus. He had an INSANE long torso. He must have had a 105-110cm sitting height.

Perfect candidate for wrestling and swimming.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: NBW on January 06, 2013, 05:58:14 AM
Didn't know where else to post this but I'm quite happy today to discover I have the same torso length as a person who is 5'7" - 5'8".
I'm on the right in the first pic and left in the 2nd pic
(http://i.imgur.com/yi7Ho.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: 511 on January 06, 2013, 09:37:21 AM
Same for me. Aftually, your torso is a little bit longer.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: dice1985 on January 08, 2013, 07:25:00 AM
i found this very interesting ...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071123120222AA2ROlK


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Andre01 on June 27, 2013, 12:18:23 PM
I think this might be useful
(http://ninamatsumoto.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/athletes09.jpg)


The tall's girls torso is about 3 inches longer than the other 3 guys. But overall height is up to 15 inches taller. Height is in the legs. 

If it was mostly in the torso then we would be stuck in the misserable short mens world. So looking at it from a "half full glass" point of view, whe should be thankful that LL is far less complicated than the impossible spinal lengthenning.

Cheers my fellow Short legged friends


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Andre01 on June 27, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
Yes, it is true. If you have a big fat butt you will have a higher sitting height than you will when you are skinny. If you are concerned about your sitting height, you can just get really fat and you will sit an inch or two higher.

If still concerned with ur sitting height, just get implants (hard silicone) between ur butt and thigh. This will surely solve ur sittting height issues. i reckon it could also help with skinner looking thighs cos believe it or not lengtheening thiings makes them look thin even after a full recovery.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: TomD on July 25, 2013, 02:15:41 AM
My legs are super short.

My inseam is 28 inches lol.

My height is 66 1/2 inches.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Sweden on July 25, 2013, 07:04:09 AM
Torso length does matter. When I sit down and compare myself to my friends - they're all taller than me. 

It will look very strange sitting down and be smaller than everybody but when standing up you're taller than your friends.
No AL can ever save you there.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Andre01 on July 25, 2013, 12:26:52 PM
there many different sitting positions. ppl dont care so much how tall u look when u r seated. u notice it bcos after LL, proportions* are always playing in ur head.

Its just like how u say ppl dont notice that u are now taller after ur surgery. PPl dont notice that u r taller as much as u think they will. Short ppl make up about 25% of the population. the other 75% are not short ie they are over 5'7 for males and they r not contantly thinking about height and proportions as much as short ppl!

Its probably another reason why ppl often leave this site after their LL. They dont want to be constantly bombarded* by things that make them self conscious about their LL and proportions. No one really gives a fuc* and in the grand scheme of things prportions r irrelevant.

Even if some low life looser who doesnt have better things to do notices that u r not proportional, remind ur self that proportional short is far worse than being unproportionally tall.
 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: darkchylde on August 15, 2013, 05:00:27 AM
One of my best friends is a really famous model and is 179cm. I am 165cm.
When we sit we are same height, but when we get up, I am totally overshadowed.
All her height is in her legs, which are gorgeous.
Her arms are much longer then mine too.
Hope that helps  :)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Andre01 on August 15, 2013, 10:36:10 AM
torso length matters. But wat matters even more is ur wingspan.

if u have long legs after ur LL ppl will only suspect something if u dont have the long arms to match.

Africans,  especially those from Sudan have short to average torsos but they are very very tall. No one ever points out that they r not porportional (except on sites like MMT) BECAUSE they have the arm lengths to match..

There is a guy at my work who is about my height (163cm) but has a ridiculously long torso. I always look at him and notice that he could easily add 12inches to his legs to match his torso. However he would then have baby arms on his new improved/taller frame.

Interestingly, africans with much shorter torsos than him look okay towering over him because their long arms complement their long legs.

A good example is  Jon Jones if u watch UFC


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: marymary on August 15, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Agree with Andre01. Also .... some black women have really long legs. Definately, long arms, but because of they short torso, arms appear even longer.
Watch the difference here
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2yy4n7d.jpg) 


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: TomD on August 15, 2013, 09:35:41 PM
When I sit down I tend to be the same size as my tall friends. They all wear size 34 pants and my inseam is 28.  >:(


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rogan on August 15, 2013, 10:38:08 PM
Check out the leg / torso difference between these 2 babes (apologies in advance if these woman are too hot for the site LoL)

The girl on the right seems to be very slightly taller but has significantly shorter legs with a much longer torso/sitting height! I say it's all good! Different can be good with no complaints from me either way!

(http://s8.postimg.org/btczdu811/height_difference.jpg)

Rogan


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on August 15, 2013, 10:51:45 PM
What an amazing photo Rogan. Thanks.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: OneSevenOne on August 16, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
All in the femurs too...


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: darkchylde on August 16, 2013, 12:53:21 AM
wow Rogan that is a really cool picture!
I'm curious as to which body would be preferred by majority of men  ???

my male friend just said def the girl on the right!
I find the girl on the left more attractive (aside from a prettier face, her legs are nice and slim and she appears more athletic). She actually looks as if she's post leg/arm lengthening procedure.

I wonder if the girl on the right got LL if she'd look overall too long with her already long torso and long legs  :-\



Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: usnom on August 16, 2013, 01:24:09 AM
The one on the left, since her torso is smaller her femur look really long.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Without Judgment on August 16, 2013, 01:58:47 AM
The one on the right looks more natural. The girl on the left has legs that look way too long, imo.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: TomD on August 17, 2013, 04:50:24 AM
I find the black girl to be sexier.  ;D

But they both look fine to me.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Junkim021789 on August 23, 2013, 04:04:03 AM
LOL this pic is really interesting.  I'm not sure about other race, but in asia, shorter torso=better.  mostly because people with long legs are rare and even the ones with long legs in asia are considered quite average compared to other races.  With no clothes on, the girl on the left looks a bit out of proportions (torso appears to be too short) but with clothes on, i think she'll look better than the right.   


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: infiniteczesc on March 04, 2014, 03:16:07 PM
Nicely said.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rgkey on March 04, 2014, 06:32:18 PM
you can not really judge from a naked picture, movement is necessary to make a better judgement.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: iman1981 on March 16, 2014, 10:24:17 PM
nice compare.
 ;)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Sereqa on April 01, 2014, 01:03:44 PM
Check out the leg / torso difference between these 2 babes (apologies in advance if these woman are too hot for the site LoL)

The girl on the right seems to be very slightly taller but has significantly shorter legs with a much longer torso/sitting height! I say it's all good! Different can be good with no complaints from me either way!

(http://s8.postimg.org/btczdu811/height_difference.jpg)

Rogan
the girl on the right is definetely sexier. She is more feminine looking. At the same time I agree it may look different with clothes on.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rgkey on April 01, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
those two girls have completely different type of bodies it is crazy to judge them lol

one has wider shoulder, different hips, even her standing is different. the only way to really judge is with movement))


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: exclide on April 06, 2014, 10:57:51 AM
Hey guys! This is my first post on this forum.  I'm from Russia and I've already had my tibia lengthened by 5cm at the Ilizarov center.  It turned out to be not enough and now in a few days I'll be having another surgery, this time I'll be doing cross-lateral tibia-femur lengthening, from which I plan to add at least 12cm.  Obviously the topic of proportions got me interested.  Well, I've got some pictures too. . .  (I hope it's ok that I didn't censor the genitalia, but tell me and I'll replace the pictures)

(http://s28.postimg.org/bbfkkfp2l/emely_mike_S.jpg)

The female model is 168cm.  As you can see, after the edit their navels are on the same levels and they're pretty much the same height (the guy's head is about 2cm longer)
The male model height is not stated, but if you assume the female's head is 24cm long (usually it's 1/7-1/7. 5 of body height), it can be measured that he's around 185cm.  His wingspan though seems to be at least 195cm - you can see how close his hands lie to his knees.  A few more. . .

(http://s23.postimg.org/upmufn04b/valerie_mike_S.jpg)
The female model is the same one posted above.  She's measured at 167cm on the studio site.  Now as you can see her legs are quite long and bringing her navel on the same level doesn't make her the same height with the guy.  (her arms are also very long, it's easy to notice)

(http://s29.postimg.org/exukoka7r/Semely_brendon.jpg)
With a white male now. . .  He seems to be at least 195cm (more than a full head taller than her).  With navels on the same level, the guy's still approx 10cm taller, but that's mostly due to his long neck spine, head and his haircut (around 4cm in head with haircut, 3 in neck).  His wingspan also seems to be proportional, close to ape ratio of 1.  His hands, as you can see, lie on the same level as his dick, while black guy's hands lie much further.

Now I'd say that we shouldn't be worried about torso length, but wingspan indeed could be a trouble for some.  I personally have a wingspan of 170cm and I started at 167cm height, now at 172.  When I get to 184 after two surgeries, I'll have a negative ape index of 14! Then again, there're quite a lot of people with their wingspan being 10-20cm longer, than their height and this doesn't seem to get viewed as a problem! It's just a question of how did we get to conclusion that having a positive non-proportional ape index is ok, while having a negative non-proportional ape index is not.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rgkey on April 06, 2014, 01:15:13 PM
Even if they get arm lengthening they will still look weird with such short torso and thin shoulders. shoulders make a big different too not only arms


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MAN-OF-STEEL on April 07, 2014, 02:12:48 AM
what's with the "clinical porno""?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Grinder on April 09, 2014, 08:25:01 AM
Those are some interesting pictures. Thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SoftPower on July 17, 2014, 06:59:54 PM
Dear users i'm new on the forum. .
i decided to join the forum to be certain about some aspects before opting for LL. . .
let's begin by saying my height is 170. 4 cm, and my only goal is to join "average" short stature, which i always regarded as 174-175.  I don't wan't and i cant't think of me as tall (179+). . i just don't want to be dwarfed by every single men and women and feel discomfortable as i feel now. . . that's it.

my main concern, though, is on proportions.  The problem is my sitting height, because it's 87. 7 cm, and i think it is really tiny (actually, it is). . . also, i'm very skinny at 55 kg, but that's less of a problem because you can always put on some weight. . .
i wandered through the forum before joining, and i found out that sitting-height/height ratio is the index to be taken into account when considering your maximum lengthening objectives. . . Being 87. 7 cm tall (sitting height), i 'd be 0. 50 (s-h/h ratio) at 175 cm. . .
Do you think it's acceptable? I read ranges are as follows:
- long-limbed <0. 51
- norm-limbed  51,1-53,1
- short-limbed >53,2
In the forum, it is reported Dr.  Guichet considers 0. 50 to be the lower limit (so I'd be in if I go for LL +5cm), but some users argue you can even go slightly lower (0. 49), but i didn't need to. . . still, i don't want to look awkward at 175 cm and 87. 7 sitting, so i really need to dismantle every thought on that.

What do you think? Do you think it will be proportionate? I can post photos if needed.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on July 17, 2014, 09:01:49 PM
Dear users i'm new on the forum. .
i decided to join the forum to be certain about some aspects before opting for LL. . .
let's begin by saying my height is 170. 4 cm, and my only goal is to join "average" short stature, which i always regarded as 174-175.  I don't wan't and i cant't think of me as tall (179+). . i just don't want to be dwarfed by every single men and women and feel discomfortable as i feel now. . . that's it.

my main concern, though, is on proportions.  The problem is my sitting height, because it's 87. 7 cm, and i think it is really tiny (actually, it is). . . also, i'm very skinny at 55 kg, but that's less of a problem because you can always put on some weight. . .
i wandered through the forum before joining, and i found out that sitting-height/height ratio is the index to be taken into account when considering your maximum lengthening objectives. . . Being 87. 7 cm tall (sitting height), i 'd be 0. 50 (s-h/h ratio) at 175 cm. . .
Do you think it's acceptable? I read ranges are as follows:
- long-limbed <0. 51
- norm-limbed  51,1-53,1
- short-limbed >53,2
In the forum, it is reported Dr.  Guichet considers 0. 50 to be the lower limit (so I'd be in if I go for LL +5cm), but some users argue you can even go slightly lower (0. 49), but i didn't need to. . . still, i don't want to look awkward at 175 cm and 87. 7 sitting, so i really need to dismantle every thought on that.

What do you think? Do you think it will be proportionate? I can post photos if needed.

It's best if you post photos with mockups. It won't be exactly as you will be after LL, but it gives a general idea.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: cancerguy on July 18, 2014, 12:35:25 AM
Just curious if anyone has come across this website before for finding out proportions.  Its based on the models 8 heard length system for artists, but is it useful for us?

hxxp: hpc. anatomy4sculptors. com/


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SoftPower on July 18, 2014, 07:48:41 AM
To Cancerguy: yes, i came across it, but i think it is not useful fort LLenghteners.  We are looking for ranges, ranges where we are still in normality.  We need them in order to plan our max/min lengthening objectives and post-LL strategies to cope with the eventual disproportions (if there are any).

I don't have photoshop so can't do mockups.  But those are my proportions (webcam, not so good photos but still helpful).  What do you think?

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2luphfk.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ta0gg5.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Sweden on July 18, 2014, 08:28:42 PM
I think you need to hit the gym at least 5 times a week.

Other than that we are all equal proportionate if we don't suffer from some kind of disease. The difference is barely 1-2cm on equal tall guys.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MiracleGrow on July 19, 2014, 02:31:13 PM
I think you need to hit the gym at least 5 times a week.

Other than that we are all equal proportionate if we don't suffer from some kind of disease. The difference is barely 1-2cm on equal tall guys.

I agree with Sweden. I recently was with a group of four 6'2+/- 0.5inch guys (me being the only shorty), and, as a proportion-concerned MMT member, I had to analyze their proportions :p . Their hands came down to almost exactly same place while standing up. Except for one of them, who was black, their sitting heights all looked like 98-100 CM. I know that studies show that sitting height varies quite a bit relative to standing height, but in the real world I just don't see it that much.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SoftPower on July 19, 2014, 03:49:37 PM
@MiracleGrow and Sweden

yeah, that's exactly what i think is the case.  There is a "stats world" and a "real world".  In the latter, at least as regards caucasians, we're roughly equally proportionate, so the point, perhaps, is just to come up with a figure which we can consider as a sort of a "boost" rather than a huge "modification".  Of course, we must say something different for people 165 cm or less, which can trade off a bigger disproportion.
That's personal, I know, and I immensely respect everyone's choice; but i'll go with LL only when I'll be sure I won't cause a huge disproportion.
Also, I think caucasians saying on MMT their sitting height is 90+ cms when they're around 160 standing are generally lying (wishful thinking?), because - "real world" speaking - that's very unlikely.  Asians, well, that's another story.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: exclide on July 19, 2014, 05:51:24 PM
Quote
During the past two centuries in the Netherlands, as well as in many more industrialised countries, a positive secular growth change has been observed. Various studies have shown that the positive secular change is mainly due to increase in leg length rather than in trunk length. Tanner reported that between the 1950s and 1980s Japanese height increased solely due to change in leg length. Sitting height showed no increase, so the trunk/leg proportions changed much more towards the proportions of North Europeans, though their final height was still 1 SD lower.

So we came to conclusion that statistics are a lie? Earth must also be flat, because it definitely doesn't seem like a sphere.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: exclide on July 19, 2014, 07:36:57 PM
More data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1720514/pdf/v090p00807.pdf):
Quote
The negative correlation between SH/H SDS and H SDS signifies that for short or tall children the usual cut-off limits for
body proportions (+-2.0 SDS) would result in considerable percentages of children who would be considered as disproportionate. This is shown in table 3. If one would strive for a specificity of about 98%, the cut-off limit of SH/H SDS for short
children would be +2.5 SDS, and for tall children -2.2.
A SDS of -2.2 is 0.47 SH/H on the graph. That means you can lengthen to 187 and still be considered proportionate. For more usual cut-off of -2, SH/H would be 0.48, that means you can lengthen to 183 cm.

Quote
There was a statistically significant negative correlation between SH/LL and SH/H and height. For practical purposes, in an exceptionally short child a SH/H ratio below +2.5 SDS and in a tall child a SH/H ratio above –2.2 should still be considered normal.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MiracleGrow on July 19, 2014, 09:57:57 PM
Thanks for the studiy excerpts. Very interesting. However, medically normal, aesthetically normal/pleasing/acceptable, and realistically common are different aspects of proportionality that should all be considered before undertaking LL. I don't believe I see many 187CM Caucasian men with sitting heights of 90cm.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: exclide on July 19, 2014, 11:43:08 PM
I don't believe I see many 187CM Caucasian men with sitting heights of 90cm.
You aren't supposed to see many, as it's a cut-off deviation. Just like you aren't supposed to see many 160cm or 2m tall males. However, a SDS of +-1, which should be seen quite often (like 170 cm and 190cm males - taking 180cm for avg), would be SH/H ratio of 0.525 to 0.495, which means 92.5cm to 98cm SH at 187cm. If he goes with that, he can still lengthen to 178cm.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rgkey on July 25, 2014, 12:09:26 AM
To Cancerguy: yes, i came across it, but i think it is not useful fort LLenghteners.  We are looking for ranges, ranges where we are still in normality.  We need them in order to plan our max/min lengthening objectives and post-LL strategies to cope with the eventual disproportions (if there are any).

I don't have photoshop so can't do mockups.  But those are my proportions (webcam, not so good photos but still helpful).  What do you think?

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2luphfk.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ta0gg5.jpg)

to me you got perfect proportions


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Morpheus34 on July 26, 2014, 10:02:50 AM
@Softpower:

I think your proportions are ok.  Because you are skinny, you look like you were quite tall (tall guys often look like that; a friend of mine is 1. 87m and has similiar proportions).
I think (concerning proportions), lenghtening shouldn't be a problem.  But I agree with Sweden, workout would be a good idea, but maybe not 5 times a week for beginning.

Greetings Morpheus


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Bob.D on July 26, 2014, 07:27:44 PM
Hello, this is my first posting, glad to be among others who see how important height is in our society, I hope to be on the operating table by October.
I am 5'5" have a sitting height of about 34. 5 to 35 inches, arm span of 5'9. 5 and that is just being relaxed and not stretching the arms, finger tip to
finger tip, I do a little body building as well, my over all goal is 5' 10" does this sound reasonable? do we think I could hit 5' 11" and still look
proportioned?

Bob. D


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MiracleGrow on August 15, 2014, 09:50:12 PM
Today I ate lunch with somebody very interesting, not just character-wise, but also proportion-wise. This guy is Caucasian (says he's of German descent), and stands 6'4-6'4.5 (~194CM) depending on the time of day. Guess who had the taller sitting height? I did! My sitting height is 96CM. We were talking about tshirts and I pointed out that it was funny that we both wore size mediums despite our massive height difference. He chuckled and said that it was because he has ridiculously long legs. He wears pants with a whopping 40 inch inseam! He said that anything shorter looks noticeably short on him. As a proportions-obsessed prospective LL-er, I felt as though I was looking at a unicorn. I couldn't believe that such proportions actually existed, let alone occurred naturally, and asked him to sit up as straight as possible. Sure enough, I was 2-3CM taller! His medium t-shirt went down past his waist. Standing up, though, he looks perfectly proportionate, and does very well socially, probably in no small part due to the confidence that his impressive height has allowed him. His proportions don't seem to bother him in the slightest. The only things that he has, that an LL-er would lack, are two very long arms, which work wonders in balancing out his proportions. His forearms were especially long and, as we know, those can't be lengthened. His hands were of pretty normal size though. I am sharing this story to validate the claim made in the thread title, and to give my take on why I am now more confident that a short sitting height doesn't necessarily mean that you'll look like a freak after LL.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on August 15, 2014, 11:54:39 PM
It's good to finally see the unicorn in person and realize that all of the tall about torso length is bunk. 99% of the people in the world will not notice your arm length either. Height is far more important in the grand scheme of things.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: SysOp on August 17, 2014, 12:13:24 AM
And now to end this discussion once and for all, the promotional image for "Citizen Kane", widely believe to have been one of the best movies ever made. This guy is wearing his pants so high that he barely appears to have a torso at all:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H-wUE0CXMKE/Tr2ZF7ReIZI/AAAAAAAAGFI/3gix6IYye_Q/s1600/citizen%2Bkane%2Bmovie%2Bposter%2B4.jpg)


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MiracleGrow on August 17, 2014, 01:46:34 AM
Yes, SysOp, the 1940's would have been a wonderful time to do LL  :P I don't know if that's still a fashionable look today, but a lot of comic book super heroes have it.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rgkey on August 20, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
it's all about personal taste thou. In russia there is one guy who did LL 6cms and he likes to wear his pants way up, and everyone makes fun of him because his legs look so long in proportion with his torso. Everyone says how unproportional he looks with long legs and small torso. I personally think in a picture it might look fine but in real life movement I personally dont find it nice looking.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MiracleGrow on August 20, 2014, 05:54:17 PM
I personally don't want to have to wear my pants low after LL in order to look proportional. I don't like the low/sagging pants look.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: aerys01 on October 19, 2014, 01:30:47 PM
if someone does not monitor or large, the difference is okay.  However, very few companies reach an extension, it is much harder than the leg.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Body Builder on October 20, 2014, 10:28:53 PM
It's good to finally see the unicorn in person and realize that all of the tall about torso length is bunk. 99% of the people in the world will not notice your arm length either. Height is far more important in the grand scheme of things.
I completely agree.
That's why I believe that it is insane for someone to do arm lengthening. Noone will mention it people!

ps Citizen Kane is my favorite movie of all time.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: wish177 on April 09, 2015, 07:39:12 PM
Wingspan matters folks. There is no point in denying it. Wingspan 15 cm below height will look odd to a certain extent. To go 10-11 cm above wingspan is really max in my opinion without considering arm lengthening

Leonard


I can't see why


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: BelowTheMean on April 12, 2015, 04:13:23 AM
I've been doing a lot of research on the golden ratio, and I have a very proportionate body mathematically. But I'm still going to get LL since it doesn't throw it off that much..


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Rains on April 12, 2015, 09:46:41 AM
As long as you're not fat you're within the proportionate range. Although I did see some Asian guys with extreme short arms but long torso which is bad for LL purpose.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: srimech123 on April 13, 2015, 04:57:00 AM
I always worried about my torso length lately, but now I am more relieved that armspan matters. My wingspan is 5'10, which is enough for 3 more inches as there are people out there who naturally have a negative ape index.

I have always been told that I have perfect proportions where I currently stand, but maybe it's just perceptions as I am close to 5'10 with trainers on. I also think that if you wear your trousers higher than most people, you will be perceived to have longer legs.

Another thing I wondered was why it's possible to lengthen tibias, femurs and the humerus, but not the forearms.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: MAXIMIZE on April 15, 2015, 08:07:06 PM
The other factor no one talks about is bone width/thickness.

I am 5'7. 5" tall and have a 5'11. 5".  Yet anything more than 2. 5" lifts look ridiculous on me because (1) I already have long legs, and (2) My wrists and ankles are tiny.  I have thinner wrists than most girls (small bone structure).

I look like I'm on stilts past 5'10" and it looks unnatural.

Works fine for me.  I just want 2. 5" tibial lengthening and then I'm done.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: ilizarovgirl on June 19, 2015, 05:37:14 PM
In my opinion torso length does matter because in some cases person may have long torso/short legs.  In this case +15/+20 cm may still look really good.  Also clothing can help cover up disproportions if they exist.  Unless you suffer from achondroplasia arm lengthening is stupid move.


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: Ken on July 15, 2016, 05:15:00 PM
@sysop

How much do you lengthen your arms?


Title: Re: Why Torso Length Doesn't Matter, But Arm Length Does
Post by: bossrow on January 08, 2017, 10:15:37 AM
it doesn't matter my torso length if I expect to grow (naturally as a teen)?
My sitting height was my bet to get more height bcs is below average but the only thing that matters is my wingspan?