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Author Topic: Call To Torsos. Research Compilation.  (Read 39424 times)
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GrownGrowth
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« on: October 01, 2008, 03:29:47 PM »

This thread was inspired from: http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1478.0.html
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,28.msg17756.html#msg17756
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1387
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1312.msg15454.html#msg15454

This is not a discussion on proportions. This is a discussion on the best method for increasing Torso Height via Controlled Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia, which I theorize is to be done by Ultrasound-Guided Injections while inverted.


*Of course, if you could find a way to proportionally grow the entire body then that is ideal and should be noted as well, like the Bovine Growth Hormone findings alleged by Dashtoronto except without the Brain Cancer issue:
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,28.msg3313.html#msg3313
.... but I figured the torso focus may be better because it may be more practical.*


Common Sense:
Proportion is something to be concerned about; however the ranges need to be considered in order to be reasonable about considering proportions. There is no such thing as perfect proportion; but there is a reasonable and ideal range that can be estimated with studies like the one cited for this thread http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1478.0.html and that can be determined by an individual's preferences for aesthetics and function.

Common Sense; Torso vs Legs for everyone:
We know height, when sitting and standing, is among the deepest psychological improvement for your perception of yourself and the perception that others have of you. Otherwise, we would not be on a site called Make Me Taller.

A taller torso is going to make you appear taller when sitting as well as standing.

We know that being slender is also physically appealing, regardless of muscle and especially for the torso, and we do care about physical appeal or we would not be discussing height. We should recognize that a taller torso is going to help anybody appear more slender.

These acknowledgments alone should start to make improving torso height more appealing than improving leg height. If you agree with the study cited http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1478.0.html, then it should be more appealing than the common sense; but if you do not agree with the study then the common sense should still prove the appeal of torso height over leg height.

Common Sense; Torso vs Legs for the individual:
I do not want to argue here. I want to make observations. These observations are strictly Torso vs Legs, though Arm Span and Arm Length information is relevant. None of this is necessary to get to my Call To Torsos (below).

Reasonable and Ideal ratios for Sitting Height to Total Height are arguable, but some range should be determined and applied to the individual's anatomy when considering improvements.

This is where general studies of reasonable and ideal range can be combined with individual preferences for reasonable and ideal range based on their natural starting points.

For men - which seems to be the main demographic of this forum:
We find that a reasonable - though not necessarily ideal - ratio for Sitting Height to Total Height, seems to be around 0.55 max (55% of Total Height found as Sitting Height Divided By 0.55 or Total Height Multiplied By 0.55) to 0.47 minimum (47% of Total Height found as Sitting Height Divided By 0.47 or Total Height Multiplied By 0.47).

Dr. Guichet told cshostsky that Sitting Height is usually 52-55% of Total Height, and that he would suggest that 50% should be the least Sitting Height. http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1387
Let's not forget that Guichet is the creator of the Albizzia Nail and known to be the most careful in considering variables of anatomy, psychology and pre and post operation conditioning. It doesn't mean he is always correct about proportion, but he may be more likely to be correct.

This 50% seems to be the 1.0:1 ratio observed in the study cited for this :
http://www.femininebeauty.info/leg-body-ratio
Interesting to note, though not desirable to argue, is that the study did not seem to observe the most common ratios found naturally. It seemed to observe the lowest spectrum where Sitting Height is 50%-46% of Total Height.

I know that my natural Sitting Height is approximately 52% of my Total Height. This seems to agree with Guichet.

However, I know that there are natural extremes:
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1387.msg18119.html#msg18119
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1312.msg15454.html#msg15454

Here is a random sample of 10 people from the info....to support the 47%-55% range with some extremes....
(i.e. Sitting Height Multiplied By 100 Divided By Total Height)
194     87      74 = 44.84% (i.e. 8700/194)
185     87      75 = 47.02%
188     89      77 = 47.34%
168     87      75 = 51.78%
178     94      90 = 52.80%
176     93      90 = 52.84%
168     89      64 = 52.97%
160     86      51 = 53.75%
169     95      118 = 56.21%
155     88      75 = 56.77%

In my opinion, the ideal ratio is 53-55% Sitting Height, more likely 55%.

Call to Torsos (pun on Call To Arms - meaning organize to act for a common goal):
We know that we can lengthen our legs if we want, and I have seen at least 2 people on this forum lengthen 6 inches split between Femurs and Tibias. Regardless of a stride increase for legs and the better ability to formally cross them when sitting, we see the common sense of how superior it would be to be able to increase our sitting height by lengthening our torso (and if you don't then read the common sense above and think). We know that increasing torso height would have a more noticeable effect on Arm Length (relative to but not exactly Arm Span) since the Arm Length would move up in respect of the waist line whereas when lengthening legs the arms/hands stay the same length below the waist even though more leg length is below the arms/hands and the Total Height has become the larger portion of the Arm Span ratio. Still, the common sense of how superior it would be to be able to increase our sitting height by lengthening our torso exists, we know how to lengthen arms if we wish, and we know that plenty of people have an Arm Span longer than their Height.

The spine is a very delicate and dynamic aspect of our body. The Call To Torsos is for a compilation of research that may help discover or advance methods for minimally-invasive or non-invasive methods for increasing Sitting Height via lengthening the Introvertebral Discs.

The major challenge is, to increase the spine length you would need a minimally-invasive or non-invasive method for increasing the height of the Vertebrae (Bone - not at all ideal) or of the Introvertebral Discs (Fibrocartilage - very ideal).
You do not want to increase the bone length because this is likely to be more difficult and there will be increased load on the Introvertebral Discs. The Introvertebral Discs provide critical cushioning and mobility between the Vertebrae and they degenerate with age. If you could increase the height of the Introvertebral Discs, you would be combating the degenerative effects of age which lead to spinal injury, you would have a healthier spine less prone to injury and you would increase height.

The optimistic aspect is 1: science has approached a period where it is trying to master growing Bone and Fibrocartilage among many other biological tissues and 2: 24 Vertebrae are not fused and thus 25 Discs have reasonable potential to be manipulated http://www.giantscientific.com/height_gain_exercise.html , which means that only a very small increase in height needs to be applied to each disc (e.g. 0.5cm or half of the width of your pinky nail Multiplied By 25 = 12.5cm = about 5 inches or 4.92 inches to be exact).

While some research is being applied to methods for manipulating the body in completely non-invasive ways such as systemic oral consumption or even approaches similar to magnetics or radio waves etc, my theory is that in order to specifically increase height of the discs in a practical manner which will not have negative side effects on the rest of the body one will likely need minimally-invasive injections directly to the disc.

I imagine a solution such as Ultrasound-Guided Injections of some sort of growth agent, probably best administered while inverting on a specially designed Inversion Table. This also needs to be done in a manner where the disc does actually grow the correct amount in the correct direction and in a uniform/proportional manner so that there is no bulging and interference with the nerves.

Nothing would likely be permanent, since the discs degenerate with age or the agent that may be found to do this may simply "inflate" the disc rather than actually grow it. However, there could be varying degrees of maintenance depending on application. It would be Controlled Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia or something technically close to that - not a permanent implant or anything incredibly invasive.

While this may seem too extreme at first though, the reality is Leg Lengthening is accepted here and it is a violent breaking of the largest bones in the body followed by lengthening with a lot of tearing/stretching of soft tissues, consolidating and soft tissue healing and rehab for months and years; whereas this is simply injections that could be done in a single day and actually improve the quality/safety/mobility/health of your spine and possibly provide about 5 inches in height. This could be similar to women getting botox injections to inflate their lips or actors/models getting botox to compensate for indented scars etc. You could even observe which discs would benefit best from an increase via the Ultrasound and make sure to take care of them first.

It could also be many times cheaper than LL.

Something along the lines of Synthol, HGH, BGH, IGF, Adult Stem Cells, or bio stuff mentioned here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1743653A1.html .... or something elsewhere or yet to be discovered .... may be the answer. Somebody may already know how to do it though they have never thought of the application for height. It could be available for treatment by the time you could get LL, maybe in a year or two, so you should research it as an alternative or compliment to LL and share your findings for the benefit of all of us.
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 09:16:13 PM »

I well understand the dream of Torso height increase,
but I don't think that will be possible soon.

Because the spine lenth is not everything in torso. Maybe 1 inch could be done without making complications. But more than that, the torso is not like legs where you can strech ligament and muscle to a certain level. We are talking of all the muscles of the back, of vital internal organs, of skin, etc.
I mean, look at a man with a short torso, clearly add 4 inch in the spine, even if this was possible, it's not going to lenghten his torso alone, there is a lot more things to lenghten.
And for me it's clearly not with today technology that we will make it.

Torso LL, is more or less re-designing an entire human torso. Stem cell ? Promising, but that's Science Fiction for now.


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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2008, 12:08:40 AM »

Stem cell ? Promising, but that's Science Fiction for now.


Adult and Embryonic Stem Cells have much research behind them and Adult Stem Cells are already used in some procedures. Far too many examples to cite.

I well understand the dream of Torso height increase, but I don't think that will be possible soon.

Science is far further along than you obviously think to at least some extent if you think stem cell work is science fiction; but I appreciate your attempts at realism.

It may be possible within 2 years if the right resources of money, time and brains were applied. It is not likely to happen at all, but it is largely a matter of effort and luck almost as much as it is a matter of practicality; and if the pieces of science required already exist for us to use properly one might say it is mostly effort and luck.

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -Henry Ford

"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it." -Confucius

Because the spine lenth is not everything in torso. Maybe 1 inch could be done without making complications. But more than that, the torso is not like legs where you can strech ligament and muscle to a certain level. We are talking of all the muscles of the back, of vital internal organs, of skin, etc.
I mean, look at a man with a short torso, clearly add 4 inch in the spine, even if this was possible, it's not going to lenghten his torso alone, there is a lot more things to lenghten.
And for me it's clearly not with today technology that we will make it.

Torso LL, is more or less re-designing an entire human torso.

This is valid. However, the body has an ability to adapt that many people do not fathom. With or without systemic aid, the rest of the body might adapt much more than you think. Surely the skin would be the least of the considerations. However, I don't think either of us can say for sure whether or not nor how much this is a problem.

Systemic research is definitely needed here as well. I bet the people behind this patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1743653A1.html and this procedure http://drlloydhey.blogspot.com/2007/09/hey-clinic-sep-13-2007-am-surgery-new.html and their colleagues have a much better idea than we do.

I also sent a Private Message to Dashtoronto to try to get him to reference his claim of Bovine Growth Hormone effects on the Human Musculoskeletal or Skeletal system(s) http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,28.msg3313.html#msg3313 in hopes of validating it and then seeing if any advances could be applied to eliminate the Brain Cancer issue but I'm not sure if he plans on checking the forum anymore.
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2008, 01:52:35 PM »

Because the spine lenth is not everything in torso. Maybe 1 inch could be done without making complications. But more than that, the torso is not like legs where you can strech ligament and muscle to a certain level. We are talking of all the muscles of the back, of vital internal organs, of skin, etc.
I mean, look at a man with a short torso, clearly add 4 inch in the spine, even if this was possible, it's not going to lenghten his torso alone, there is a lot more things to lenghten.

Torso LL, is more or less re-designing an entire human torso.

This is valid. However, the body has an ability to adapt that many people do not fathom. With or without systemic aid, the rest of the body might adapt much more than you think. Surely the skin would be the least of the considerations. However, I don't think either of us can say for sure whether or not nor how much this is a problem.

It is important to add some of the logic here to encourage hope and thus effort for contribution here. The world really does start to change with a few committed people. Literally, people could research the right credible studies on the internet, use some common sense, exchange some info with some credible scientists and specialists and we could all have a solution based on existing science that is already funded. Worst case while productive, we could discover the missing links and try to encourage or aid necessary developments. Worst case, we do nothing. I'm trying to do my part, but this isn't my way of life so teamwork is necessary.

So, let's talk about the anatomy and method again in order to address this perspective of yours.


Method:
Controlled Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia, which I theorize is to be done by Ultrasound-Guided Injections while inverted.

Methodological application on anatomy:
Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia means...
Controlled lengthening of the cartilage (type: Fibrocartilage), commonly referred to as Spinal Discs, in between the vertebrae (Introvertebral) by causing the Discs to grow in a controlled manner.
Essentially, we recognize that growth plates that help bones grow are also made of cartilage (type: Hyaline) before they become bone; and that the Spinal Discs could greatly benefit from reasonable addition in size for health and anti-degeneration while also increasing height (old people partly get shorter from Spinal Disc Degeneration, the Discs provide flexibility and shock absorbing ...etc).

Real example of the direct dynamic effect of the method on anatomy:
24 Vertebrae are not fused and thus 25 Discs have reasonable potential to be manipulated http://www.giantscientific.com/height_gain_exercise.html , which means that only a very small increase in height needs to be applied to each disc (e.g. 0.5cm or half of the width of your pinky nail Multiplied By 25 = 12.5cm = about 5 inches or 4.92 inches to be exact).
*If you pay attention to the Sitting Height : Leg Height : Total Height Ratios, you'll realize that 5 inches is going to be towards the rare extreme of maximum lengthening ... much like only about 2 people on this forum have lengthened their legs 6 inches while most are thinking about 2-3 inches. 

Real example put into perspective of the systemic or indirect effect on the anatomy:
With leg lengthening, there is usually 1 lateral cut in the bone per segment (rarely 2). This means that all of the lengthening is occurring at one "pressure point" or "load point" so to speak. So to compare LL of bones to the lengthening of the spine, like you were trying to do, this would be as if you only enlarged 1 of the 25 discs by 5 inches, whereas I am talking about enlarging each of the 25 discs a very small amount (again, even 5 inches is only 0.5cm lengthening per disc or the width of half of your pinky nail - think of how incredibly small that is for 5 inches of effect). While the overall increase is large, the "load dispersion" spread proportionally by only 0.5cm makes this very practical for 1: how much each disc can grow, 2: how much this effects surrounding anatomy because there is no large gap created in any one area rather the effect itself is so proportional that it is "almost systemic".
(Common sense, plus see my skin experiment and rope analogy below!)

What we don't know (A lot.  Cheesy But, to mention a few things):
I haven't studied anatomy in a long time. I forget all of the organs of the torso. Don't you?
Quote
Major organs

Most critical organs are housed within the torso. In the upper chest, the heart and lungs are protected by the rib cage, and the abdomen contains the majority of organs responsible for digestion: the stomach, where food is broken down; the pancreas and liver, which respectively produce enzymes and bile necessary for digestion; the kidneys, which filter wastes from blood before excretion as urine; the large and small intestines, which extract nutrients from food; and the anus, from which fecal wastes are excreted. Finally, the pelvic region houses both the male and female reproductive organs.

Here are some visuals:
http://www.buyamag.com/torso_models.php


More importantly, is the very elaborate understanding of how each of those organs are secured to the body and/or secured to each other.

So, let's try to put the effect on the organs in perspective with all of this:

First, we'll eliminate what we should:
Quote
the anus, from which fecal wastes are excreted. Finally, the pelvic region houses both the male and female reproductive organs.

These organs are in the fused section of the spine, and thus the only load that is going to be applied here is approximately 0.5cm for the 1 and only disc directly connected at the top and a similarly small load at the point where the intestine connects etc. It will not be the collective load, but the load in the specific area of connection.

Quote
In the upper chest, the heart and lungs are protected by the rib cage
So, we know for sure that the rib cage is firmly attached to the spine. We need to be incredibly concerned that when lengthening the spine the heart and lungs are still going to be as protected as they should be. What I do not understand, nor know how to certainly find out without dissecting a cadaver or talking with an experienced surgeon, is exactly how the heart and lungs are secured and thus how they would move in relation to the spine and ribs moving.

What is good to know is, a healthy body is already quite flexible. For example, when somebody performs a reverse arch type of pose:

....the spine is effectively lengthening in some respect by the angle it bends even though there isn't a height increase - maybe 1-3+ inches total - because of the flexibility of the Introvertebral Discs - and the ribs are moving greatly, yet the lungs and heart are also moving with the ribs and they are still protected even though there is a better angle for a spear to enter the heart.

Now, it is important to remember that even though a total height increase in my example of 5inches, the "load dispersion" means that the ribs themselves are not elevated by 5 inches! The bottom rib will elevate approximately 0.5cm and the ribs gaps will be stretched approximately 0.5cm per rib as they are connected to each vertebrae and they still have connective tissue in the gaps for protection!
Regardless, as long as the heart and lungs are attached well enough - which I think/hope they are - they will simply move with the ribs (not need to grow or stretch at all) and be protected the same.


Quote
the abdomen contains the majority of organs responsible for digestion: the stomach, where food is broken down; the pancreas and liver, which respectively produce enzymes and bile necessary for digestion; the kidneys, which filter wastes from blood before excretion as urine; the large and small intestines, which extract nutrients from food;

Again, I do not know how all of these are connected, but they are going to have a very small load of 0.5cm put on them very proportionately.

I'm quite sure this is not going to matter at all for the intestines. I bet it would make you a bit more regular because it would stretch them out a bit (don't you notice how well your digest and dump after abdomen stretching?)! The small intestine is about 23 feet long  and the large intestine is about 5 feet long (plenty of room the lengthen 0.5cm proportionally along their surface area against the spine)!
Likewise, the rest of the organs could very possibly handle the proportional load covered only for their surface area in relation to the spine.


So, what essentially remains is the skin and the muscles of the back and abdomen and their connective fascia/tissues. This, combined with gravity, should be the biggest resistance how I currently imagine. However, Hyperplasia and/or Hypertrophy can very logically potentially overcome this!

Now, to try to give an example of how easy the skin will surely adapt, do this:
Pinch the skin on your bicep between your thumb and index finger, grip it and pull it as far out from the arm as possible. You'll probably get an inch of stretch easily. This is because the "load" is dispersed proportionally throughout the already-flexible skin.

However, let go. Now, think of only the small area of skin that your pinched for a grip and try to spread that small area of skin out the same inch or so that the skin collectively extended from you arm. You can't because there is too much "load" on too small of an area, thus you have to tear the skin and cause it to grow new skin to stretch the same inch or so as the first experiment! However, you can stretch that small area about 0.5cm before the skin would have to tear, which helps make the point that each Introvertebral Disc could likely be manipulated by about 0.5cm!

In theory, the muscle and all connective tissue itself may adapt the same!

One other example by analogy is, imagine an old rope. Quality rope is usually made by 3 core strands interwoven, and each core strand has many micro strands of thread. An old rope loosens over time, with the core strands unweaving and the micro strands unweaving. The longer the rope is, the more the length difference. A very long and loosened rope, when pulled from each end, may increase in length by 5 inches; however, that is only because each micro strand and core strand is tightening proportionally throughout it's entire length and no smaller segment of the rope could be lengthened 5 inches without cutting the rope.


I don't think I am completely wrong. I may be completely correct. At worst I am partly correct. There certainly isn't enough reason to be deterred based on this premise alone.

And for me it's clearly not with today technology that we will make it.

No, it is very possible with current technology. If we don't already have all the pieces of the puzzle, we are very close. You still think stem cell progress is science fiction and you're way off. HGH, IGF, MGF, BGH and Adult and Embryonic stem cells and more are all very well understood - though maybe not perfectly - and we are growing all sorts of tissues in vitro and directly on some animals and body builders are growing tissues on themselves etc.

This is what the thread is for - to post up all the studies of things like Fibrocartilage growth in vitro or on an animal or human.

Here is one example of MANY:
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:xX7XGF-BJ0EJ:www.wired.com/medtech/stemcells/news/2008/08/stemcell_regeneration+%22cartilage%22+%22adult+stem+cells%22+%22horses%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

"Rocky Tuan, chief of the Cartilage Biology and Orthopaedics Branch, holds a vial containing native knee cartilage that was recovered from total knee replacement. Adult stem cells harvested from the cartilage will be seeded in biological scaffolding and will grow into similar cartilage tissue. "

"Veterinarians are already doing it with injured horses, and research into human applications is well under way."


Thing is, Adult Stem Cells are so far only showing promise to repair tissues, not grow them any more. However, there are methods like "micro tears" that can be induced combined with Stem Cells to cause growth. Also, other elements like IGF (also the/an effective peptide of HGH) do in fact induce growth aka Hypertrophy or Hyperplasia. Also, look at this patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1743653A1.html

That's just scratching the surface. I'm telling you with almost complete certainty, if we do not already have all the fundamental pieces of the puzzle we are very close. If the right effort was put in, there truly could be Controlled Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia Therapy for Torso Height Increase in about 2 years.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 03:18:59 PM by GrownGrowth » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2008, 07:23:32 PM »

Here is one example of MANY:
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:xX7XGF-BJ0EJ:www.wired.com/medtech/stemcells/news/2008/08/stemcell_regeneration+%22cartilage%22+%22adult+stem+cells%22+%22horses%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

"Rocky Tuan, chief of the Cartilage Biology and Orthopaedics Branch, holds a vial containing native knee cartilage that was recovered from total knee replacement. Adult stem cells harvested from the cartilage will be seeded in biological scaffolding and will grow into similar cartilage tissue. "

"Veterinarians are already doing it with injured horses, and research into human applications is well under way."


Thing is, Adult Stem Cells are so far only showing promise to repair tissues, not grow them any more. However, there are methods like "micro tears" that can be induced combined with Stem Cells to cause growth. Also, other elements like IGF (also the/an effective peptide of HGH) do in fact induce growth aka Hypertrophy or Hyperplasia. Also, look at this patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1743653A1.html

That's just scratching the surface. I'm telling you with almost complete certainty, if we do not already have all the fundamental pieces of the puzzle we are very close. If the right effort was put in, there truly could be Controlled Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Hypertrophy and/or Hyperplasia Therapy for Torso Height Increase in about 2 years.

Wow. I didn't even read the article I linked to. It was far more in my favor than I thought:


"Injured? Horsing Around With Stem Cells May Get You Back in the Saddle
By Marty Graham Email 08.18.08
Rocky Tuan, chief of the Cartilage Biology and Orthopaedics Branch, holds a vial containing native knee cartilage that was recovered from total knee replacement. Adult stem cells harvested from the cartilage will be seeded in biological scaffolding and will grow into similar cartilage tissue.
Courtesy NIAMS

Doctors might soon be able to regrow injured muscles, tendons and bones without invasive surgery, simply by injecting a person's own stem cells into the site of an injury. Veterinarians are already doing it with injured horses, and research into human applications is well under way.

*So, for this theory to be applied to my Height Therapy idea, micro tears might need to be induced to the disc to help with growth.*

The National Institutes for Health seem to think regenerating human muscle and bone using a person's own adult stem cells is nearly ready for prime time. Last week, the NIH announced to its staff that it's creating a bone marrow-stem cell transplant center within the NIH Clinical Research Center.

*I told you this stuff is far more advanced than Science Fiction and that we may have all the necessary pieces of the puzzle that could provide effective therapy in 1-2 years.*


Researchers at the NIH labs in Bethesda, Maryland, are already growing human muscle, cartilage and spinal disks in vitro. The tissue isn't mechanically sound yet, says lead researcher Rocky Tuan, but that will come with further work.

"I have a piece of tissue that looks like a spinal disc, a sand bag, tough as nails on the outside and like sand on the inside," says Tuan, a Ph.D. and the senior investigator in the Cartilage and Orthopedics branch of the NIAMS. "The mechanical properties are lousy, but it's a beginning."


*Growing Spinal Disks is exactly what I am talking about, however ours need to be grown within our bodies with an injection, like they are already doing for repairs in horses.*

While the use of stem cells harvested from human embryos has been getting the most media attention, scientists and doctors have also been working with adult stem cells that also have the ability to become one with their environment and to replicate as cells of their adopted tissue. Using adult stem cells -- grown inside the body or in the lab -- has become accepted in the veterinary community, and horses have benefited greatly. Researchers are working to bring those same benefits to humans, but there are still hurdles left to clear.

The NIH project comes in part from what veterinarians have learned from injecting adult stem cells into valuable horses who've suffered injuries. In many cases, those horses' careers were saved when the stem cells regrew damaged tendons and ligaments.

Rodrigo Vazquez, a Southern California veterinarian, has been using adult stem cells to regrow damaged muscles in horses for several years. It's a fairly common procedure in the veterinary arena, and the results are impressive: One of Vazquez's patients is participating in this year's Olympics Dressage events; another is a prize-winning jumper.

The procedure is simple and straightforward. Inside a surgical suite at his equine hospital, Vazquez removes blood full of adult stem cells from the sternum of the anesthetized horse.

Then he rolls his stool to the other end of the horse, where ultrasound data has helped guide needles into the exact areas on the rear leg where the beautiful horse's ligaments are torn. He injects the stem cells into those spots.


*Wow. Ultrasound-Guided injections just like I said! I swear I did not read this before starting this thread, though I did hear about Adult Stem Cells being used in Horses. Another important thing to note is that these would be your own Adult Stem Cells, so there would likely not be any complications with your body rejecting them.*

"A few years ago, these injuries were career-ending," Vazquez says. Not any more. "In a month, the torn tissue will be completely regrown and healed."

*I'll bet that injury was easily 0.5cm worth of tissue (it's a horse and the tear was debilitating)! In one month it will be healed! How would you like to be 5 inches taller in one month from some injections?!?!?*


Vazquez would like to put himself in his patients' place. He has had surgery several times for spinal injuries he incurred while lifting horses. Human medicine, unable to regrow or heal the injured spine, simply fuses the bone and tissue through a surgical procedure. At best, the surgery relieves some of the pain and restores some mobility. But it's not a true repair.

"I wish I could have had a procedure like this," Vazquez says of the treatment he gives horses. "This will lead to human treatments, but they can't move as fast as we can."

Tuan, who is using stem cells to cultivate experimental tendons and disks in his lab, thinks it's about time to look to treating humans.

An emerging body of scientific studies from all over the world -- including a cardiac study under way in Miami and a pediatric ACL (anterior cruciate ligament) study at the Harvard-affiliated Children's Hospital of Boston -- is showing that using a patient's own stem cells can prompt the growth of new muscle, from the knee to the heart. And the precursor step, using platelet-rich plasma for injuries, is on the verge of becoming mainstream.

Adult stem cells, particularly mesenchymal cells that come from muscle, bone and fat, are cells with a powerful ability to replicate and not a lot of personal identity. They easily take on the characteristics of surrounding cells and they tend to grow quickly once they get there. Ultrasounds of Vazquez's horses, for example, show regeneration of muscle in four to six weeks.
The final product is this cartilage-like tissue grown around the scaffolding by NIH scientists. Tuan says the tissue resembles the human version, but may not be mechanically sound -- yet.

Courtesy NIAMS

Adult stem cells can be found all over the body, in bone and marrow. Tuan says they're also found in tonsils and in the placenta and umbilical cord, which suggest that the discarded body parts can be stored for later use.

Because researchers are using autologous cells -- from the patient's own body -- the research is not controversial. No one has challenged the ethics or funding of adult stem cell research the way embryonic stem cell studies have been challenged. And because adult stem cells are native to the patient's own body, the chances of a patient rejecting them are slim to none.

Tuan and his team have been able to coach adult stem cells to form muscle and disks using goo from the small intestine and a polymer scaffold to tell cells how to grow. But, he cautions, the primitive structures aren't ready to go into humans.

"After a few weeks (of lab growth), it will turn into something that resembles a tendon, but it has to be the mechanical equivalent and we don't know that we're there," Tuan says. "Stem cells are very promising, but what they do for horses may not work so well for humans because humans are the hardest animal to rebuild."


*Okay, work to be done, but close. Plus, we would not need disk replacement (most of us, for now). We would be building only 0.5cm and often less in addition to structurally sound disks, and any deterioration of the new disk might simply reduce our height a bit *


Once they're perfected, Tuan sees a day when the tendons will change the dreaded surgery for torn anterior cruciate ligaments that sideline up to a quarter-million people in the United States and Canada every year.

"Often, that injury is a complete tear -- the ligament is snapped in two and the ends ball up and even if you untangle them and pull them together, they won't heal," he says. "So they take part of the patella tendon, which is short and tough, and stretch it and staple it to the bones. So not only is your ACL not working too well and you have to stretch it out, but your knee hurts like crazy."

"If we can learn to grow a tendon that works right, or figure out how to make the ACL heal back together, we can save a lot of people a lot of pain," he says.

In fact, doctors are already treating people with adult stem cells. Bone marrow transplants for cancer patients are basically stem cell therapy. But the marrow often comes from other people, and its primary purpose is to boost a weakened immune system, not to generate tissue.

*Already used with people, in some manner, despite initial contradicting statements.*

And treating with platelet-rich plasma -- a blood product made by spinning a patient's blood in a centrifuge to concentrate the platelets -- is already in limited use and is becoming more widely accepted as a safe therapy. PRP is routinely used in cardiac surgery, where applying it to a cut sternum before closing has been shown to cut the infection rate in half. The plasma has growth factors that also promote healing.

"PRP helps recruit stem cells to the injury," says Dr. Allan Mishra, who has used PRP on its own and as part of surgery in sports injuries -- including treating tennis elbow and getting Stanford football player James McGillicuddy's patellar tendon to heal after his second surgery. "The body knows how to heal itself -- we're speeding up and concentrating the process."

Last year, Mishra wrapped up a study where he used platelet-rich plasma to treat the 20 worst tennis-elbow injuries he'd culled from more than 100 volunteers. "Ninety-three percent got better with a single injection and stayed better for two years," Mishra says.

The treatments are about one-tenth of the cost of surgery, or about $2,000 to $2,500, he says. The patient's blood is drawn, centrifuged by a specialist called a perfusionist, and injected, all in one visit. "I will guess that five years from now, insurance companies won't authorize surgery until the patient has tried and failed at PRP."

*That's much cheaper than CLL! Plus, as you age, your doctor can legitimately diagnose you with deteriorating disks, so your height therapy may be covered by insurance in part by disk regeneration therapy!*


The obvious next step is to isolate the stem cells and send them to work, both inside and outside the body, researchers say. "PRP is reparative. Stem cells are regenerative," says Angela Nava, a perfusionist who processes both animal and human blood for PRP, stem cell and other procedures.

But getting from animals to humans is going to take a lot more research, according to Dr. Thomas Rando, an associate professor of neurology at Stanford University School of Medicine. Rando studies the body's signaling systems that tell stem cells what to do.

"We don't always know how stem cells, when injected into some tissues, work their magic," Rando said. "Veterinarians don't go back and study the horse's tendons to figure out what the stem cells did to promote healing."

"There are all kinds of ways stem cells could work. If we could understand how they are actually promoting better function of the tissue, we might be able to further improve their therapeutic effects," he adds.

Stem cell treatment is not without risks, researchers say. The worst-case scenario is that the stem cells could cause cancer -- or become cancerous themselves.

"You're putting in cells that want to grow. That has to be under control," Rando says. "Or we can end up with cancer."


Tuan also says that researchers don't entirely trust stem cells and their ability to adapt and grow.

"There's a nagging feeling that there's a cancer stem cell, that when it's agitated by exposure to carcinogens or radiation or something, it goes nuts, and that we can't identify it from the other stem cells," he says. "How do you find this bad boy and pull him out?

"And there's a nagging worry it's the same cell. We only know these cells by what they've done, and by the time they've become cancer, it's too late." "

*Note that there is no mention of any case where a horse stem cell treatment has caused any of the problems they mention.*

Find stuff like this and post it! Anything related to growing Fibrocartilage in the human body via injection!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 07:30:21 PM by GrownGrowth » Logged
GrownGrowth
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2008, 07:51:48 PM »

.

The biggest hurdle I can think of that I did not mention is the Sternum. The sternum will not likely stretch amongst itself at all. However,
1) it may not need to stretch, a)as the ribs are a bit flexible for the 0.5cm or so small adjustment and/or b) as the section of disks corresponding to the sternum could be kept in normal proportion and nobody would notice though you would lose that section for height increase.
2) Adult Stem Cells, IGF etc  combined with micro tears may help the sternum grow.

Micro Tears for the disks or sternum could be similarly induced with an Ultrasound-Guided needle. They are truly Micro.
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 04:13:21 AM »

Nice input.

Code:
Science is far further along than you obviously think to at least some extent if you think stem cell work is science fiction; but I appreciate your attempts at realism.

I mean that using stem cell is not really "industrialised" yet, it is reserved for research and exceptional cases. Even if the technique is already valid, from an individual point of view is would cost millions. Just calculate the cost of : - Cultivate an individual stem cells and formatting them correctly. - Mobilise a team a surgeons.
Quote
Adult stem cells harvested from the cartilage will be seeded in biological scaffolding and will grow into similar cartilage tissue.

However, I do agree that torso lengthening may be possible in a near future. Governments seems ready to invest in stem cell research (probably for the anti-ageing promising techniques)
The mechanical and chemical medicine we use for two centuries is now outdated, everything should be done directly within the cells.
I read not so long ago that we should be even able to modify the DNA of the cells with some viral vectors...

Anyway for the idea you mention, it would be interesting to discuss of it with specialised doctor or student in medicine.
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 04:56:18 AM »

Nice input.

Thanks. Would love to see more from others. There is a lot out there.

I mean that using stem cell is not really "industrialised" yet, it is reserved for research and exceptional cases. Even if the technique is already valid, from an individual point of view is would cost millions. Just calculate the cost of : - Cultivate an individual stem cells and formatting them correctly. - Mobilise a team a surgeons.

First, that is a far far cry from your initial statement of "Science Fiction". But....

Secondly, I could discuss this from many angles of agreement and disagreement. Autologous Adult Stem Cells are "cheap". Every human "cultivates" them. Over 110 treatments, over 2100 clinical trials, and growing. Should be relatively cheap, but not cheap like a Dollar Value Meal. As far as time goes, time decreases with teamwork and effort.

http://www.repairstemcells.org

However, I do agree that torso lengthening may be possible in a near future. Governments seems ready to invest in stem cell research (probably for the anti-ageing promising techniques)

I'd count on the private sector, not the gov. But, yes, it seems the best angle might be "anti aging" of the discs which just so happens to be a height therapy too. Ideally, you know to inject x to add x height reliably ... and ultrasounds guide the needle and measure the discs.

The mechanical and chemical medicine we use for two centuries is now outdated, everything should be done directly within the cells.
I read not so long ago that we should be even able to modify the DNA of the cells with some viral vectors...

Care to elaborate?

Anyway for the idea you mention, it would be interesting to discuss of it with specialised doctor or student in medicine.

Only an open minded, progressive and enthusiastic one. Would prefer the specialist. Find one and send him/her our way. Wink

« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 05:01:12 AM by GrownGrowth » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2008, 04:06:21 AM »

Quote
Care to elaborate?

Well i read in scientific magazines or in some books, that we are entering a new medical era.
Mostly until 20th century, medicine has been based on empirical knowledge : this potion with these herbs have these effects, etc.

In the 20th, humans have be practising surgery, but if you look at it, it's mostly something mechanical. You cut, you transfers organs. If you have a cancer, and the only option is destruction of the degerated cells, but surgery, laser, or whatever.

What the article says, is that human medicine, until now, have always been something approximative, something empirical.

But with a better understanding of the DNA, and how to control it, you could revolutionize human medicine, by acting directly at the core of the problem, not only trying to erase the consequences of your genes.

Maybe you heard it, 2008 probably most important medical fact is that for the first time, we have been able to create stem cells from some adult skin cells, by DNA mutation. Until now they have to use cloning, which is expensive and ethically problematic.
That mean that with a small piece of your skin, you can have stem cells which could evolve and multiply in neuron, muscle, bone.
The perspectives are extraordinary, but there is still a lot to understand.
 
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 12:58:42 AM »

Great findings growngrowth, but i see this thread has gone cold for a few months now.

All i wanted to add (and i hope it wasn't already mentioned):

The worries of stretching the spine as regards to damage to organs/sternum etc.. can be negated when you consider that astronauts can grow up to 3 inches when in microgravity due to spine elongation. As far as i'm aware they suffer no organ damage.

If the sternum was going to be an issue then the lumbar and lower thoracic can be lengthened and the upper thoracic left alone. Cerebral would be only for an absolute perfectionist and completely overkill.


The research is appreciated GG, any updates?
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 12:08:44 AM »

Interesting findings, which would be revolutionary if they come to be reality. Although has anyone given a thought to what injury such a procedure would cause the spinal cord, spinal nerves,arteries veins etc? These will be stretched as well.

As far as I know, the spinal cord, which is 40-50cm long and runs from foramen magnum at the base of the skull (occipital bone) down till the second lumbar vertebra in adults, doesn't have the ability to stretch or grow further. Does anyone have any info about this dilemma?

Second point, between each vertebrae emerges a spinal nerve through an intervertebral foramen, and increasing the thickness of the intervertebral disc will affect the position of where these nerves and vessels emerge, as well as the pressure put on them. This must also be taken into consideration...

Any thoughts on this matter?
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 11:22:21 PM »

Is anyone aware of any more research about this?

Also, for some reason, I can not send messages, or post new topics, or anything else. . .
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 11:42:41 PM »

Well as i know, during puberty and adolescence, bones grow according to the growth of all organs and muscles in the body and not vice versa!
So if someone is doing stretching (or yoga stretching) exercises, he/she would be making his/her body more flexible but NOT longer!
And as a proof of my point of you, then why not all gymnasts are tall!??!
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 11:47:10 PM »

point of view'
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 12:11:34 AM »

Also, for some reason, I can not send messages, or post new topics, or anything else. . .

That's because despite dozens of pointers telling you to do so, you haven't read the FAQs...
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2011, 02:56:16 AM »

Isnt everybodys spine curved to a certain extent due to gravity and chronic bad posture? 

In space the astronauts didnt exactly get taller, it was just that theres no gravity in space so their spine werent decompressed and relaxed itself

I believe the spine can be stretched or straightened in a natural way by doing intense pilates and yoga that stretches out your back which does

straighten your posture and spine.

Ive personally practiced yoga and pilates and in a month or so , and it does improve your posture
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2011, 01:59:58 AM »

Isnt everybodys spine curved to a certain extent due to gravity and chronic bad posture? 

In space the astronauts didnt exactly get taller, it was just that theres no gravity in space so their spine werent decompressed and relaxed itself

I believe the spine can be stretched or straightened in a natural way by doing intense pilates and yoga that stretches out your back which does

straighten your posture and spine.

Ive personally practiced yoga and pilates and in a month or so , and it does improve your posture


What do really compress the spine are the excessive amount of fat in the belly and the lack of abdominal muscles, which result a bad posture as well.
I've started working out since 3 months, lost around 7-8 kilos (used to be 65 kgs), my posture is getting improved due to working out and yoga and stretching exercises....but my height is still the same because I still haven't developed enough abs...
But what I've noticed is that my morning height is increasing than before (used to be max 170, my height is 169), but it became 172-173.....
I guess if I continue on working out and stretching, I will gain at least 1 inch in my spine in the near future....
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2011, 06:24:57 AM »

Quote from: MMT Admin link=topic=1487. msg44027#msg44027 date=1306023094
That's because despite dozens of pointers telling you to do so, you haven't read the FAQs. . .

I haven't seen any such pointer, but. . .

My sincerest of apologies.

My question was, is anyone aware of any current method to permanently increase the length of the spine in any way?
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2011, 09:48:02 PM »

Very interesting and thanks for the sitting height to total height stats :)
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2011, 01:48:41 AM »

I am a newbee this is my very first post
I have heard about this on youtube
is such research being conducted
I want to add 6. 5 cm to my torso preferably
because I just want to pass a certain height requirement
to qualify for a rescue type position
which requires me to be of certain height
it will mean more pay of course
and  I would be very interested especially due to time factor
as I am old (over40) and can't afford to take all the time off work
thanks
anybody with info I would like to hear from
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