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Author Topic: Serious (bio)medical height increase research projects  (Read 165164 times)
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shigg
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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2008, 05:56:19 AM »

Oh Please DO TELL, lots of people on this board including me would love to hear about your research and its progress!
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grande2
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« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2008, 04:15:49 PM »

http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn14512-labgrown-tendons-gradually-fade-to-bone.html?feedId=tech_rss20

seems like researchers are already solving the tendons problem for us.. progress is being made Smiley

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Jet
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« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2008, 06:44:41 AM »

Finding a weathy investor willing to put his neck out to endure negative publicity is an admirable endeavor but a long shot at best. What will most likely happen in the bio tech field is that bone growth or degradable implants or stem cell technologies etc will be developed to treat non height increase related issues. At some point a resourseful doctor or medical facility will think of the possibility to use a modified version of the said yet to be determined treatment to increase people's height. That is the general natural course of how things seem to come about to fruition in a free enterprise economy.

It may never happen though because only real short guys would be the vast majority of the patients. Taller people who talk about getting height enhancement surgery such as shorter guys yet still in the normal height range will normally not follow through with this. Girls won't in great number because being short is not the same tradgedy for females. The only sizable group motivated enough to follow through with any type of height increase treatment will be guys under 5'6"circa. Of course there will be exceptions. The good thing is I do not think there will be a problem of people abusing it to over do al body of already adequate height. It not like people will be willing to go through something extreme like what may be done in the future to improve their basketball game by going from 5'11" to 6'2." It would still be too evasive for that.

On my final note I want to clear up some semantics: Height can be said to be cosmetic and that is partly right but more importantly height is structural. Its a structural, highly functional, cosmetic issue if you will. These factors is what makes any alteration of height so involved and complicated. A chin surgery is purely cosmetic for example. A nose job deals with a nose which is functional to breath of course but one can breathe through the mouth alternatively if things go a bit wrong with the functional aspect with the nose. This is rare and a follow up treatment could easily rectify the nose functional problem if it arose. One say breast are functional but I think if a fluke happened and a breast enhancement patient was unable to breast feed her future babbies she could resort to forumula.

On the other hand, mess up our total body frame structure with a complication with a height increase surgery on the legs and we could be disabled for life. Not being able to walk is a much more serious risk as opposed to mere cosmetic surgery risks as mentioned above. And I omitted the general anestesia risks and infections and nerve damage etc.   So I reiterate that LL and other future methods deals with a stuctural issue first and foremost- cosmetic is secondary. So being too short is a structural problem not merely a cosmetic problem and thus more legitimate. 
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MMTA
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« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2008, 10:23:25 AM »

On the other hand, mess up our total body frame structure with a complication with a height increase surgery on the legs and we could be disabled for life. Not being able to walk is a much more serious risk as opposed to mere cosmetic surgery risks as mentioned above. And I omitted the general anestesia risks and infections and nerve damage etc.   So I reiterate that LL and other future methods deals with a stuctural issue first and foremost- cosmetic is secondary. So being too short is a structural problem not merely a cosmetic problem and thus more legitimate.  

Tell that to the thousands of people across the world who have lost relatives as a result of complications with breast augmentation, liposuction and rhinoplasty...

Suggesting that complications with LL are more risky that with other procedures demonstrates a lack of awareness of the reality.

The risks of an LL operation are no different to any other operation that involves a General Anaesthetic, and I don't know of a single instance of something losing a limb or mobility from LL, but I can give several examples of people doing so from procedures such as calf implants, the most famous example of which is the guy who got an infection in his implants, which they destroyed his natural muscles leaving him with only bones, blood vessels and tendons - and that's a procedure that is much less common than LL.
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GrownGrowth
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Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.


« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »

Oh Please DO TELL, lots of people on this board including me would love to hear about your research and its progress!

He is thinking profit, I'm quite sure, while you and most if not all are thinking non-profit. He mentioned he hadn't patented it yet because he didn't know of the efficacy. If he reports nothing, he is more likely to not be "beaten" by somebody else by not leading somebody to speculate nor spoon feeding any potential competition.

Regardless, I would be surprised if it were successful for elongation. There are a lot of factors. Elongate, do nothing, even just cause an abnormal lump of bone, something else.

Hyperplasia should be a surprisingly strong force, which could likely overcome resistance - especially if there are systemic or proportional effects elsewhere, much like gravity is much weaker than most presume.

I think the IM methods for LL are becoming more efficient and rational for a sure thing and bearable approach. Some people want to approach the whole process differently. There could be a lot of advances for height in the future. I think a very practical approach is to compliment LL of the arms and legs with biochemical approach to proportional increases of at least the torso if not as well the hands and feet. If one could finely control Cartilage Hyperplasia or Hypertrophy, there could be great torso advances. For example, one might be able to inject desired/safe amounts of IGF or Adult Stem Cells or something effective into the Introvertebral Fibrocartilage Discs for 0.5cm increase per disc to grow approximately 5 inches in the torso. This is not something that anyone should casually screw with, though, because there could be major issues. HGH/IGF is already proven to enlarge feet and hands including toes and fingers, from what I gather, but at the doses necessary one has to consider long term systemic effects such as Cardiac Hypertrophy.

One way or another, we are getting close to full body size increases. It's simply not as quick as everyone wishes.

Jet makes a good point about alternative application adaptation.

Jet assumes advances are doomed to be more invasive/extreme than they may turn out to be. Some advances may be very susceptible to the "abuse" he refers to. But, abuse and extremes are subjective. Further, points have been made that going over approximately 6'4" is more likely to be pushing limits that most will desire when thought of from a logical perspective of efficiency/function.
http://www.makemetaller.org/index.php/topic,1408.msg16791.html#msg16791
I wouldn't care if everyone was 6'4" or taller, as long as I was 6'4". I find only very shallow logic in only wanting to be taller than most rather than a myriad of purposes. Likewise, I agree with Jet that height is not only cosmetic.

MMT is basically irrefutably correct regarding his risk comments. At this point, Jet appears to have more of a limited perspective than he/she thinks regarding what is actually being done with LL and being discussed in this thread.



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horizon
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« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2009, 10:09:23 AM »

HeraldO,

have you managed to find fundings for your group? You mentioned that you contacted people who may finantially support your initiative but not before the 3rd quarter...How is it going?
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carina
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« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2009, 04:54:51 PM »

Hello Horizon,

Harald is not so often on this site. But as far as I known he still didn't find a funding source.
My name is Carina and I am a member of his group too. I've searched for fundings too but it is
so hard to find any. I don't known why it is so hard, because it is a great project with business
potential. If you want to contribute by searching in your living place please do because we can use
any help we can get. Best regards, Carina Wink
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MMTA
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« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2009, 11:44:51 PM »

Hi Carina,

As you may know, it's my view that there simply is no real business opportunity here, and that the funding would only come from a charitable source.

I've looked at it many ways, and looked at the proposals from Harald and others, and I just cannot understand what the business potential is Smiley

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carina
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« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2009, 02:21:45 PM »

Dear MMT,

I see also business potential because when there is an improved method becoming taller is more reachable for much more people. The current LL method is expensive (especially the safer intern methods), highly risky and takes a lot of recovery time. With the current method there are many reasons/obstacles why people will not or cannot do it.
For example the recovery time. Not everyone is able to take off a year or more from their work. And what if there are complications. In that case the recovery time is even longer. 
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carina
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« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2009, 02:46:19 PM »

Simply said the business potential is that an improved method will make coming taller more reachable for much more people in the world. The money is also an issue for most people. With the current method you not only pay for the surgery, but there are much more costs like for example plaintickets, staying elsewhere, you can not work during your recovery time, you are independent for a long time, the fear of losing your job when you stay away for a year etc.
There are just too many obstacles for a lot of people who have the wish to come taller. That's my point of view.
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carina
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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2009, 02:51:10 PM »

And of course, in the best case the investor is of short stature and has a personal feeling with our project! Wink
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MMTA
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« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2009, 04:31:00 PM »

I see also business potential because when there is an improved method becoming taller is more reachable for much more people.

That doesn't make for business potential, only for potential demand.

Quote
The current LL method is expensive (especially the safer intern methods)

It's not considered expensive, because the demand for it still currently outstrips demand. LL doctors could sell their beds many times over and have long waiting lists, which doesn't suggest that the price is too high for the market to sustain.

Also, you are being a little bit naive about how much biomedical treatments cost - the cost for the development of a drug or biomedical treatment is likely to be hundreds of millions of dollars, which would have to be recouped by the investors - that would lead to very, very high prices as the market for an LL solution would be small, as I have explained elsewhere - this is not something like Viagra that a very high percentage of men will use at some stage in their lives - only a very small number of people would ever consider it.

Quote
highly risky and takes a lot of recovery time. With the current method there are many reasons/obstacles why people will not or cannot do it.

It's no riskier than any other surgery! Why do you suggest that it is? I think that you haven't done your reason - thousands of people (like me!) have done LL over the last 50 years with no adverse effects and are now walking taller Wink

Quote
For example the recovery time. Not everyone is able to take off a year or more from their work.

I didn't take a year off work - my LL was four months from start to finish. Once again, you're not dealing in facts, just speculation.

And the recovery time for LL is based on the time it takes for bone to consolidate, which is not going to change whether the method is surgical or biomedical - bone is bone, of course  Grin

Back to the drawing board, I think!

This kind of project needs very, very detailed, highly-intelligent thinking to work - you should by now be able to present to us stats on why the market potential is good, and how any investor would make their money....

I still have never seen even a low-level business case for this - the current proposition is weak.

Before you think about approaching more potential investors, you and your colleagues need to recruit a business expert who really understands how people do market research and develop and investment case for a development or a research project.

You will never get off the ground with that kind of expertise.

Hope that helps!

MMT
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 04:32:57 PM by MMT Admin » Logged

carina
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« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2009, 08:29:04 PM »

Dear MMT,

I believe that potential demand and business potential are the same. When you develop a good product profit will follow. I also believe that the market is not so small as it seems. You can't compare it with something like Viagra. Taking a pill is easy, an LL surgery of course not. It is a heavy and risky surgery. You say that it is no riskier than any other surgery. But Belgium and Dutch LL doctors told me personal that that is not the case. In the Netherlands Dutch LL doctors don't do the surgery anymore because of the risks and the long recovery time. They told that to me. They really did.
Greetz, Carina
 
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carina
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« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2009, 09:03:00 PM »

The more people can afford the new therapy, the bigger the profit. It is a win-win situation. For the patient and for the company/doctors. That's my point of view. And of course I understand that there is a fear of losing money. No risks no losts and no success. And I known that you are a man of facts. But no one can predict the future. If that was true not a single company in the world would loose money. But doing business is also having faith in your product. Passion can lead to success! I strongly believe that. And that's why we hope to find an investor or donator with personal interest. 
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MMTA
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« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2009, 01:03:49 AM »

Dear MMT,

I believe that potential demand and business potential are the same. When you develop a good product profit will follow.

If it was that simple, it would be easy for everyone to become a millionaire.

First of all, you need to understand the following costs:

1. Product development costs
2. Product distribution costs
3. Marginal product costs
4. Overheads

You could have the biggest possible demand for something and still not be successful at creating a business around it because the costs are too high.

Your response shows that you need to have some real business experience / training in your team to make sure that you all understand the product development cycle for  biomedical and pharmaceutical products - it can cost BILLIONS to create a product - you then need to ensure that there is enough demand to recover those billions, and to make a profit within a reasonable break-even period.

Cost is an important a component of profitability as demand Wink

Quote
In the Netherlands Dutch LL doctors don't do the surgery anymore because of the risks and the long recovery time. They told that to me. They really did.

I am sure that they did, but this once again highlights a lack of business understanding - you do realise that the Dutch are one of the tallest nations on earth? Do you think that the opinions of LL doctors there are the most useful ones when thinking about LL?  Grin

Just because a doctor tells you something, doesn't make it a fact... it's still an opinion.

Real market research takes time and money and needs real business expertise.

I understand that you have a strong belief that there is a market, but no one who is interested in these alternative methods has ever shown me a single compelling piece of actual research.

To have any success with successful business people, you need to be talking a different language...
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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2009, 01:04:44 AM »

But doing business is also having faith in your product. Passion can lead to success! I strongly believe that. And that's why we hope to find an investor or donator with personal interest. 

I admire your spirit, but success needs belief AND relevant skills Wink
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grande2
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2009, 09:31:16 AM »

If it was that simple, it would be easy for everyone to become a millionaire.

First of all, you need to understand the following costs:

1. Product development costs
2. Product distribution costs
3. Marginal product costs
4. Overheads

You could have the biggest possible demand for something and still not be successful at creating a business around it because the costs are too high.

Your response shows that you need to have some real business experience / training in your team to make sure that you all understand the product development cycle for  biomedical and pharmaceutical products - it can cost BILLIONS to create a product - you then need to ensure that there is enough demand to recover those billions, and to make a profit within a reasonable break-even period.

Cost is an important a component of profitability as demand Wink

I am sure that they did, but this once again highlights a lack of business understanding - you do realise that the Dutch are one of the tallest nations on earth? Do you think that the opinions of LL doctors there are the most useful ones when thinking about LL?  Grin

Just because a doctor tells you something, doesn't make it a fact... it's still an opinion.

Real market research takes time and money and needs real business expertise.

I understand that you have a strong belief that there is a market, but no one who is interested in these alternative methods has ever shown me a single compelling piece of actual research.

To have any success with successful business people, you need to be talking a different language...


I agree to some extent with MMT. Imho the business potential is obviously there, in effect it's a gold mine waiting considering how many people would like to increase their height (even if only by a few cm) if it were easy, affordable and non-invasive at best. It could even rival Viagra or some other cosmetic drug.
The problem is in the finding of decent funding for investment considering the researchers don't want to disclose their research projects to the public (yet).

The Biomedical initiative really could use some more practical management, and first and foremost the development of an official, informative website combined with possible start-up of a non-for-profit organisation or similar to raise funds. As I discussed with MMT before, if you think about how many people worldwide would like to pay for a decent height increase technique, online fund raising by donations could mean a massive amount of investment money at disposal on a rather short-term basis. The main problems are being credible, assuring the money will be put to good use and to find a middle way between disclosing information about the project(s) to the public and protecting the research.

One note I would like to make MMT; first the most interesting research up to date is still being researched and invested upon ( they have definitely seem to have found enough fund backing in the last years, but at the cost that we are kept a bit in the dark atm) for other medical targets. Thus height increase would be a side-project out of the official medical use, but the researchers saw the potential for height increase themselves, and have an interest in putting the technology to this use, which is ofcourse from business perspective also cost-efficient.
Second, you are not enough considering the implications a good height increase technology will have on societies. Asia, containing most of the world population, is the region where height increase will have the most direct immediate impact, and height is definitely as important (if not more) in life as it is in the western societies. I strongly belief research for height increase is even now being funded by the Chinese government, and if the technology would be available or in its infant form to a nation with ambitions, it would already be tried or used upon volunteers (which would be easy to find..) ; in Asia I don't t believe FDA rulings etc would impede progress much. To be frank, if Kim Jong-Il knew there was a way to get taller, I am sure he would back it up with a good amount of money Wink

The last is a personal opinion on mine, but I am strongly convinced given the amount of people, forums, websites, news articles, scams, etc about height increase online, that if the people were informed the money they donated would be put to good use, they would be willing to give some of their money for it. If a few thousands or million people are interested in this and even only donate a little amount (say 25 $ in average), there would be a respectable amount of research capital available to be put to good use.

Lastly, I do agree the group lacks people, and certainly people with a business background & expertise would be more then welcomed. Again MMT, your input and energy would be more then welcome Smiley


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MMTA
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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2009, 10:28:30 AM »

Hi grande2,

Nice to hear from you - Happy New Year!

I agree with your points - hopefully 2009 will bring you some more support and people that can bring a strong business perspective to help bolster your initiative. Good luck!

MMT
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carina
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2009, 08:30:27 PM »

Dear MMT,

I'm not a business woman. I have another profession. So it is true like grande2 said that we certainly can use people with a business background. I can only think logical and when I do I'm convinced that the project from Harald has a  market potential. In fact, his business proposals are crystal clear to me. If I were a millionaire I certainly would invest an amount of money into it. Because the lack of money is the problem and certainly not the initiave. And ofcourse I am aware of the fact that the Dutch are the tallest people on the planet. I am not stupid. But my question to you is: Are you aware of the fact that there live a lot, and I mean really a lot, of foreigners in the Netherlands. Especially people with an Islamic and Asian background. Indonisia was in the past a republic from the Netherlands.
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carina
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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2009, 08:43:37 PM »

Are you aware of the fact that 80% of the population living in Amsterdam have their roots in another country.
They said that on the Dutch television. The Netherlands is a multi cultural society.  Grin 
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